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Which is faster? 951 or 928?

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Old 09-03-2006, 12:43 AM
  #16  
hacker-pschorr
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Originally Posted by Mike Markota
Hacker, very nice.. car looks sweet. Are those 02 996 5 spokes and an s chin spoiler? That makes those early cars look 10000x better.

Don't you have a supercharged one too?? Those are so bad ***.
997 5-spokes, very 928 friendly front offsets.

Friend of mine converted this car to a track car 15 years ago. Added the chin spoiler - acts as the mounting point for factory brake cooling ducts. Tail end is stock, I plan on adding an S4 wing before next season.

My 81 street car is supercharged. Modest boost (6psi) with exhaust took it from 160rwhp to 311rwhp running very rich. Need to dial it in better, haven't had the time.


The point of my post was not to say "928's are faster". Hell, with all out mods and an almost unlimited budget a 928 will be faster. Watching Mark Anderson win the POC race starting from the back pretty much settles that argument. Bottom line is, they are different cars, I also own an 87 944S. Totally different driving experience. Year for year a 928 was rated faster in most performance tests. 951's are much easier to modify due to being a turbo - but if you spend the money to un-cork a 928, hang on. Tim Murphy is pushing over 600hp with a pretty much stock 928 with 15psi.
Old 09-03-2006, 01:03 AM
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Legoland951
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Mark Anderson probably spends more on his crankshaft than our 944s. I traded him a 928 for an 87 944 once and we used to do part swaps so I got to see a few of his cars up in the air at his shop. He spends ALOT of money on his cars and its all advertising write off. It sure is nice to have Uncle Sam pick up a part of your racing bill.
Old 09-03-2006, 01:05 AM
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amen to that I work for someone with the same deal... race car and all assoicated costs are write off for advertising for the machine shop. lucky bastard
Old 09-03-2006, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Legoland951
Mark Anderson probably spends more on his crankshaft than our 944s. I traded him a 928 for an 87 944 once and we used to do part swaps so I got to see a few of his cars up in the air at his shop.
His total yearly budget is a fraction of what some of the cars cost he races against.

Originally Posted by Legoland951
He spends ALOT of money on his cars and its all advertising write off. It sure is nice to have Uncle Sam pick up a part of your racing bill.
Give me a break
Speed GT series - why do you think Caddy is in there? For fun? How about Corvette at LeMans. They spend more on tires in one weekend than Mark spends in a year - 100% advertising write off as you put it.
Old 09-03-2006, 02:59 AM
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meh, I don't care which one is faster i like the 928 better, that v8 sounds sweet.

I almost got a 79 928 before I bought my 944 now I think that I made a mistake, early 928s are non interference so in my opinion less to worry about. from what I heard early 928s are big gas guzzlers with the CIS.
Old 09-03-2006, 03:11 AM
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Mark Anderson's driving ability has a lot to do w/why his car is so fast- that car also weighs a TON less than stock. A stock 928 (S4 through GTS) weighs ~3650lbs (actual) while a 951 weighs b/t ~3100 & 3160lbs depending on options & year, so later 928's (S4's & up) all weigh a good 400lbs more than most 951's- this hurts the 928. but, the 928 (again- S4 to GTS) has a lot more HP & TQ (more responsive, low-end, NA, TQ too) w/a nice multi-link suspension...

There are a lot of variables- I've got a 1987 MT w/928S4 / 911 turbo test- the S4 ran a 5.5 0-60 & 13.8 @ 102 1/4 mile, Cx of .34, & a top speed of 166.94mph, so I'm pretty sure the 171mph was slightly optimistic- ESPECIALLY since the later GT & GTS always listed the same 171mph w/much more HP/TQ. The S4 pulled .84G around a 200FT skidpad- not as high as most 951's, but then, I've been told they can definately outhandle the stock 951 in some situations, but there are some places where the 951 would win, I'm sure... The 951's closer to being a more hardcore track car whereas the 928 leans more towards a luxury GT- there are certainly a ton more 951's being raced than 928's, that's for sure- of course that's partly due to the 928's higher pricetag... The MT S4went for $64k & the later GTS was pushing $90k & years later, on the used market, they are definately selling for more..

In short, I'd say the S4, GT, & GTS are all faster than a 951S in a straight line, but as for handling, it really depends- also, throw in mods & it could really go either way....
Old 09-03-2006, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Robby
Mark Anderson's driving ability has a lot to do w/why his car is so fast- that car also weighs a TON less than stock.
The same can be said of any successful race car.
Old 09-03-2006, 03:56 AM
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Holy DeJaVu.............I was looking for my post and couldnt understand why I couldnt find it until I realized you posted the same thread in the 928 forum (where I replied)....OK....thats cool...........it will be interesting to see the different responses............
Old 09-03-2006, 04:11 AM
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Hacker, what is your deal? Did I say anything about any other car he races against? Do I care? I compared his crankshaft to the cost of a 944. Did I compare his budget to anyone elses? Whats the chip on your shoulder for? Why don't you ask him about the write off? He told me this himself and I think its a totally cool deal as the IRS does not dictate how efficient your advertising dollar has to be or what return on your advertising dollar you have to get. I was there when he got his 6.0L stroker crank and he told me how much it cost him about 10 years ago. It did cost him more than just about any n/a 944s I have ever bought.

I worked in financial planning finding legal tax loopholes and plenty of people take advantage of the legal advertising write off. My real estate agent bought this big truck where he can drive his race car into it. He converted one section of it to living quarters so he registered it as a motorhome instead of a commercial vehicle saving himself thousands of dollars a year in insurance and registration costs. He will write everything off including the miles driven when he advertises his real estate business on the side of the truck while hauling his race car to the track. Its all in the internal revenue code and there is nothing wrong with it.

I am not sure you and I are reading the same thing when you type your responses.

Last edited by Legoland951; 09-03-2006 at 04:44 AM.
Old 09-03-2006, 04:17 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Legoland951
I am not sure you and I are reading the same thing when you type your responses.
I cannot find more than one way to take this comment:
Originally Posted by legoland951
It sure is nice to have Uncle Sam pick up a part of your racing bill.
He works his *** off at 928 International to get pennies on the dollar back from Uncle Sam, if that much.

"must be nice" John D was probably able to write off some of his expenses by having the Rennlist logo on TRG car at LeMans

I don't like it when people throw around the term "write 100% off" since you seam to know, this doesn't mean they get back 100% of what they spent, not even close - the impression you gave by your comment is the total opposite.

I know many small business owners (like Mark) who live and die by their write-off's. Those who are misinformed like to throw around terms and bitch about "loop-holes" the "rich" use, how unfair it is. This is the impression I got from your post. If it was misunderstood them I'm sorry - I hear that term thrown around almost daily by people with negative intentions when using it.
Old 09-03-2006, 04:22 AM
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Did I ever say he didn't work to make his money? Did I have a problem with him writing anything off legally? Did you read my post? I don't think we disagree.

I like Mark and Jim at 928 international. I was fascinated with his car (at that time less than 2500 pounds) and he was installing a smaller aftermarket starter to save weight. That car kicks ***.

Terms of the trade: when someone dines with a client, they can write off 50% of the meal. Its known as common sense by people in the trade that the government do not pay 50% of the bill. You are able to deduct 50% of that meal from your taxable business income and the actual amount depends on your tax bracket. When you write off 100%, such as in most cases of mortgage interest (unless you make a lot of $), the actual amount deducted is 100% of the interest paid times your tax bracket percentage. I helped people deduct $160k A YEAR from their taxes to put into their retirement accounts and some esoteric plans (412i plans working in conjunction with 501C3s and defined benefit plans) allow a business owner to put up to $500k a year pretax. Can most people's 401k do that? Only the businesses can do that. I have never worked for anyone ever since I was out of college so the only thing I know is owning my own business. I think the tax laws are written for people like me and against people who are employees. Do I think its unfair? Well, is life fair? These are the rules of the game we have to play with and when done properly, it works beautifully.

Last edited by Legoland951; 09-03-2006 at 04:41 AM.
Old 09-04-2006, 02:32 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Legoland951
...I like Mark and Jim at 928 international. I was fascinated with his car (at that time less than 2500 pounds) and he was installing a smaller aftermarket starter to save weight. That car kicks ***....
That's killer- I had never heard about the starter- how much did would something like that make? Would it work in a streetable 951? I've quoted several things that he did to that car, 1000 times or more, from a EC article- for one thing, he went through it & disconnected the whole wiring harness & added back only when he needed- he said the stock harness was >80lbs in that car & IIRC, he only added back a little over 20lbs, so he lost a good 60 that way- then, he said he went around w/a 5Gal bucket & pulled nuts & bolts & junk from all over the place- he said it seemed like nothing at first, but by the time the bucket was half full, he'd pulled a good 50lbs or so... I've always wondered if the car was really that light (<2500lbs) but I'm sure it's amazing- that's pretty light even for a 951...
Old 09-04-2006, 02:47 AM
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I have no idea what type of weight savings and have never read any articles about his car. All I know are the things he and mutual friend Steve R. (who makes the chips for the 944s) told me. Steve had a sub 1:30 (willow springs big track) 951S and Mark was running closer to 1:25. A stock 951 will probably get around 1:37 to 1:40. I am not sure whether he even has the same car since its been about 10 years since I talked to him. Everything in the 928 is heavy and the wiring harness is very heavy. I love the high rpm torque (keeps pulling) of the 928 as opposed to the corvette (low rpm torque and runs out of steam at higher Rs) of the same years (mid 80s to mid 90s model year). He has gone through several cars from what I know throughout the years.
Old 09-05-2006, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Yummybud924
meh, I don't care which one is faster i like the 928 better, that v8 sounds sweet.

I almost got a 79 928 before I bought my 944 now I think that I made a mistake, early 928s are non interference so in my opinion less to worry about. from what I heard early 928s are big gas guzzlers with the CIS.
My '94 968 gets 26.5 MPG (on the road)
My '85S 928 gets 21.5 MPG (sometimes 22mpg)

If you run the 968 at high rpms and shift at the right spot on the power curve...the 928 has to run hard to stay in front. Of course, the big V8 just winds out and the shifts required are less frequent. Something to be said for brute strength and gearing.

Harvey
Old 09-05-2006, 12:05 PM
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Harv;

I gave a 928 (84 euro S) owner his first ride in a 86 951 yesterday that I'm R&R'ing for a client. Car is largely stock save for a Europroducts chip/2 wastegate shims, lindsey boost enhancer and 993 BOV. He is now a convert...
Granted, his car has headers and single 3" no-cat, 1-muffler exhaust, He was delirious on how much X (insert with faster/ quicker/ speedier/ etc) the fity-one was over his Shark.
So there you have it, another anecdotal evidence story extolling the virtues of Porsches best-bang-for-the-buck car.
Keep the '68 and boost the **** out of it!! Or better yet, trade it to me for my Red 951 (in Avitar), and I'll boost the **** out if it.


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