mavfan

i just gotta say, why not sell the n/a and buy a turbo for that kind of money? now thats efficient! good idea though, just gotta say that u'd probably really have to tighten up your belts, because by the looks of that the pully's between the turbo and alternator have teeth. So whats keeping the old belts and their grooved pully's from slipping? hmm

944J

So you remove your alternator and add this (the small thing is the new alternator)?

Or you move your alternator to a different position and add this?

Who has put one of these on a 944?

And since it can do 15psi with upgraded bearings and pulley you coud (theoretically) get 330RWHP from it.

FRporscheman

Someone try this and give us results (I'm too poor to try it myself). Or else we'll just argue about theories.

Geo

Perhaps becasue despite all the talk about that, it generally can't be done. It would probably take 3x that typically to bridge the gap between a decent 944 and a 951 price-wise.

This concept is hardly new. What it lacks (at least so far as I could tell from a quick glance) is the most important piece needed - engine management. With decent engine management and the addition of an intercooler, there is no reason this should be dangerous to add to a 944.

It appears considerable fabricatoin will need to be done. No guarantee that the 944 alternator could be modified to work as pictured. This is FAR from a bolt-on kit and certainly could be duplicated with a little effort for a lot less.

Yabo

What may be easier, is welding or bolting a toothed gear like on teh back of that alternator, but to the front of the alternator pulley. Then take out the stock airbox mount the 'turbo' in between the afm and the coolant expansion tank and just run the hose into afm from the turbo.

One thing that confuses me... Is shouldn't there be some kind of cooling for the 'turbo'? or are superchargers usually not cooled?

Sabbath

I think the point of the kit, it says in the auction you source fuel and timing. Or they have various solutions for fuel and such.

The listing also doesnt say that unit is for a Porsche - but their blog gets into that.

When I spoke with Thomas Knight they indicated that in those occasions where replacing the Alternator was not an option, a front mount configuration is possible.

He also directed me to Hausbrauen and X3M944 for a Porsche kit; which he says replaces the Alternator and the unit is mounted above the Alternator in place of the stock air box. Same as the auction but on top instead of below it. He indicated that the problem with the 944 is hood clearance and that unless you can move the ALT down then the only way to mount a unit other than removing the A/C is to rear mount it to clear the hood. Which is where the BDT comes into play. He also told me that if I didnt care about A/C then Speed Force Racing carries a kit.

He indicated that their unit only needs 30K Compressor RPM to make 6 PSI. He then covered the basics of a Centrifugals operation. Long winded, but very informative.

As for x3m944 their Blog has dyno runs of a 944 with a unit installed? They also show a lot of different units.

Their other auctions show some of the items they might be offering for fuel control and all that.

I sent them a message on ebay and here is what I got:
I wish someone would get one and install it on something. I have seen talk on some of the Ford Boards of the unit and a few people are getting kits. But no one has one installed yet?

White Pony

Sure... I'll dump an entire months pay and put that on my 87 924s... Currently that little gadget exceeds the entire cost of my car...

Seems like a good idea.

edit HOLY SHILT 220 HP?????????????

Sounds like an EVEN BETTER IDEA.

If someone in the Chicago/wisconsin Iowa area wants to help me put it on depending on the cost, I may get that gadget in about two or three weeks.

Campeck

how naive.

Geo

Better factor in the engine management. That is even more critical. Also, I wouldn't even consider it w/o an intercooler. The SC (despite them describing it as a belt driven turbocharger it's simply a centrifugal supercharger) is the easiest and cheapest part of the equation.

I'm not saying by any means that it cannot be done and done right. Just don't get lured by an ad that isn't a total solution. It's not exactly a bargain either for what you get IMHO.

White Pony

LOL i get excited about this stuff... LOL

Crunch some numbers for the 2.5l n/a

220hp (if that)
Minus 143 stock hp

77 horsepower

~2000 dollars (figure an intercooler as well)

Install (another 600-1000 to run intercooler lines, mount it up custom, and tune the engine to run the 'charger...)

Headgaskets, clutch, synchros... Nameless parts that will break if not already replaced from the strain..

It would probably cost 3000-4000 to get it working reliably...

You will pay, in my estimation $40-$50 or more per HP if you strart out with a REAL solid car. Which mine is not.

Maybe some other time.

Sabbath

Try 128 to 130 HP at the wheels stock for a 944. Thats what dyno after dyno shows, unless its modified. Look it up on the net.

Look I did the research on this, but I am just kicking tires, I can't buy right now and I am stuck thinking about the power of a 951.

3-4 k is probably right. For the 944 anyway.

Mr. Knight said that some non-porsche cars can handle 4 PSI without any changes to the fuel or timing, most cars 2-3, its above that that fuel becomes an issue. But he said that you can use an AFR or Cold Start Injectors?

I came up with the following based on the cost of some of the stuff in my turbo kit for the Ranger.
1000 for the setup as advertised (auction shows 900 starting but no reserve)
525 for MAF conversion as Advertised
300 for AIC from UDR
150 for hard pipe with 2 injectors installed
375 for MSD 6 BTM
100 for fittings and hose
100 used Intercooler and pipes to install it.
TOTAL 2550.00

USING the MAP conversion they advertise Cost is 400, so thats 125 less than MAF conversion so that makes it 2425.

Doing the install myself, since I did the unit on my Ranger. Prices are for stuff I used on my Ranger to complete the turbo conversion.

Of course the SFR setup si 4500 which = ATI Procharger C2 supercharger, mounting bracket, 6 psi pulley, new belt, appropriate intake piping, 993 twin-turbo blow off-valve, K&N air filter and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, VDO boost gauge and all the necessary hardware, hoses and hose clamps along with detailed instructions?? So nothing specific for timing retard? Just an FMU.

Well if all that works? With the AFM installed. No intercooler? Remove the A/C?

If you look at it in that light?
1000 for the setup as advertised (auction shows 900 starting but no reserve)
599 for LR Fuel Rail kit with Adjustable Fuel Regulator, braided lines, etc hahaha not needed but very cool looking. So is their solid lifter setup.
100 Hard Pipe
100 for fittings and hose
100 used Intercooler and pipes to install it.
100 for Blow off/bypass valve
50 Boost Gauge
25 Gauge Pod

2074.00?? or 1774 if you just got a AFR or some such and lines for say 199.00

or I guess if you BIN at 1495.00 it would be 2569 or with just the AFR 2269.00

Looking at it that way doesnt seem to bad, but I am thinking of selling the 24S and going for a 951. Problem is college budget - I dont want to give up the ranger and well I guess its stupid to keep to cars... one year of college to go...

Oh and just for gigles I asked about the DTA setup - the price I got was 2200. Supposedly complete Stand Alone all the bits.

Supposedly according to Mr. Knight you can use a boost switch and cold start injectors for fuel.
Ebay shows
25.00 for boost switch
25.00 for a cold start injector
Stock DME supposedly is good for up to 2 PSI and starts to lean out above that.

If you read the blog and I did ages ago as well as their threads, their are a lot of ways to address the fuel issues and timing.

Hemm Sell the 24S + 2500 or so would that get me a 951 that doesnt need a ton of work?

I think I will need to save up a bit before I jump to the 951. My ranger is plenty fast (in a straight line) and the 24S handles, so thats enough for me for now. I like the 1/4 and I want to get to DE events.

I still am keen on seeing someone do this. If it can be proven to work, then maybe just upgrading the 24S would be in order?

No wont sell the ranger, I use it in my job, I am not about to haul stuff in the 24S.

Whatever I am just dreaming about this, but the numbers dont look so bad.

90 hp = 27.7 per HP. Compared to other little odds and ends that dont add much power it looks inviting I mean a darn Header costs 300+ and it adds what 5 hp? Thats like 60 per Hp. Guess adding power isnt cheap.

What do the 951 guys pay to add power? Is that another money pit I would be getting myself into, the prices on LR dont exactly look cheap?

Sabbath

Geo, you piped in on the other threads, can the 944 really work with just the SFR stuff? I mean if thats all it takes, how hard is it to just get a used SC or some such and make mounts then add the stuff and tune?

I thought the SFR came with all this stuff, but it looks to basic? If we forget the kit, how hard would it be to get a Alternator with a rear pulley? And then just mount up a Name brand supercharger? I know they cost as much as this kit new, but ebay has used ones so does Craig's list.

What do you think? I mean could it be done for less than 2k and reliable?

Geo

I'm not real sure about this set-up, but I'll bet, depending upon the level and competence of the DIYer it could be done for $2,500 or so. I'd probably consult someone else about the SC (if I were doing it I'd go turbo, but that's another conversation that has already been beat to death) and get something well matched.

If you buy the mandrel U bends straight pipes, and can fab them yourself that will certainly save some serious money. It's not hard. I had never done it before I did my SR20DET install to my G20 and it came out pretty darned good. I tacked the pieces together and paid someone else to do proper welds.

I think I'd probably try to work with a Megasquirt on this. If you go to the Pelican 944 forum you will find a thread by someone who has worked it out.

The bracket to mount the SC should be pretty straight-forward. Good measuring and perhaps some spacers to get the belts to line up and it should be easy to get made. I'd probably make a model out of wood (simply because I have plenty of capability to do so) to test fit and all. Finding a shop to fab it shouldn't be hard.

Add to the price for lack of knowledge and especially lack of homework. Both will cause more trial and error and more farmed out work.

Just do your homework. Most of the cost of a bolt-on kit is paying for someone to figure it all out in advance and it's well worth it if you aren't committed to learning for yourself. Lots of kids are putting together turbo and SC kits all the time. I think the 944 would be a very good candidate for FI if someone just sits down and figures it out. Others have, but not too many. Again, IMHO the hardest part is going to be engine management.

Sabbath

Well I can do most of the fabrication, or get it done.

So thats not an issue, the thing I liked about the BDT is all the mounts and stuff is done and you get a unit under warranty, instead of a used name brand piece. But who knows how much weight that holds.

The DTA E48 conversion is impressive. DTA engine management is no joke. 2200 for a complete system is not bad, but that adds a lot to the cost.

I think these guys Knight and x3m944 certainly have done their share of fabrication, research and designs, so their must be something to it. The idea is something to take away if nothing else and for a DIY thing, cant get in trouble for that. I mean if I just copied what I saw, thats not resell or anything. The rear mount pulley seems cool and I could keep the A/C which is why I first got interestd in their kits way back when.

The work is not hard or impossible and if the SFR works with just a AFR then that means a lot can be done without piggy back systems and the like. With an intercooler and already low temsp Seems like more than 220 is possible. How much more I dont know but 250 would be cool.

I just put in a phantom grip in my trans, well had it put in with the spring upgrade kit, so I think based on how everything looked when it was pulled that I dont have to worry about the trans and the HP is not an issue everyone says 250 is the limit right?

So with a 924S pushing 250 and its lighter weight. But what about DE and other races, wonder if I can run in any of the classes with a SC?

Daydreaming is dangerous. I really want someone else to do this and then tell us how great it is, before I take a chance hahaha.

Thanks for advice. The Fabrication side of it is not an issue, I just really wonder how great the SFR kit works with just a AFR for fuel, thats like nothing and no intercooler? The pipes, yea I would do the same generic kit and weld it up or have my dad show/help me.

2bridges

Sabbath - you remind me of myself a few years ago.

I can fab the **** outta just about anything..... but getting the engine management in line is a far bigger task IMO. I discoverd on a few projects that getting things to work properly under changing conditions can be a nightmare unless you really know chip programming.

For one project - I retrofitted an ecm to use flash chip and burned around 150 chips.. bastard still runs nowhere near the way it should

For my future projects I generally start with researching engime management proven capabilities and then put together a stratagy from there. Saves a lot of pain