944 16V twin CAM GEARS mod
12-08-2005, 10:40 AM
#61
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Still seems like alot of time and effort for littl to no gain? And thers is no way you can agure that it is MORE reliable that the factory system. If you want to turbo the 16v motor then do it right and custom cams ground for your specs.
That way it is done right.
That way it is done right.
12-08-2005, 12:05 PM
#62
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absolutely. I will have custom ground cams, but two exhaust cams will be used as the cores (at least, thats the plan now).
9-44. Ya, Im slowely learning about the 944 DME. This big engine build up that im talking about is for my 968 (which I am going to take my time building). I'm current replacing the engine in my '84 944. I plan on putting in a 944 turbo motor. What I would like to be able to do, is use the motronic system, and stay under ABOUT 250hp for the time being (gonna use a small turbo, just cause I have it laying around).
I assume that i need to use a 951 AFM (cause its got the highest airflow capability right??). So is there any way to change a 924S computer to accept the 951 AFM? Or will I have to use a 951 DME? I guess it comes down to where the AFM data is stored (on the "chip" or someplace else).
What HP does the 951 AFM top out?
On a 300zx, I just use whatever MAF I want, and then change the VQ maps/TP scales/injector constant on the chip.
9-44. Ya, Im slowely learning about the 944 DME. This big engine build up that im talking about is for my 968 (which I am going to take my time building). I'm current replacing the engine in my '84 944. I plan on putting in a 944 turbo motor. What I would like to be able to do, is use the motronic system, and stay under ABOUT 250hp for the time being (gonna use a small turbo, just cause I have it laying around).
I assume that i need to use a 951 AFM (cause its got the highest airflow capability right??). So is there any way to change a 924S computer to accept the 951 AFM? Or will I have to use a 951 DME? I guess it comes down to where the AFM data is stored (on the "chip" or someplace else).
What HP does the 951 AFM top out?
On a 300zx, I just use whatever MAF I want, and then change the VQ maps/TP scales/injector constant on the chip.
12-08-2005, 01:34 PM
#63
Drifting
Originally Posted by Campeck
or better yet. put louvers on that spot and on the same spot on the opposite side of the head. to help get air out from behind the radiator...not only looks cool, you get rid of the need for a bump, and you improve radiator effieciency as well!
12-08-2005, 01:57 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by evil 944t
My responses are in red
12-08-2005, 03:11 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by patrat
on could kill two birds with one stone via bumping the hood. You could clearance for the twin pulley, and put in an exhaust scoop to get all that hot air out of the engine bay.
12-08-2005, 03:16 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by 300guy
absolutely. I will have custom ground cams, but two exhaust cams will be used as the cores (at least, thats the plan now).
9-44. Ya, Im slowely learning about the 944 DME. This big engine build up that im talking about is for my 968 (which I am going to take my time building). I'm current replacing the engine in my '84 944. I plan on putting in a 944 turbo motor. What I would like to be able to do, is use the motronic system, and stay under ABOUT 250hp for the time being (gonna use a small turbo, just cause I have it laying around).
I assume that i need to use a 951 AFM (cause its got the highest airflow capability right??). So is there any way to change a 924S computer to accept the 951 AFM? Or will I have to use a 951 DME? I guess it comes down to where the AFM data is stored (on the "chip" or someplace else).
What HP does the 951 AFM top out?
On a 300zx, I just use whatever MAF I want, and then change the VQ maps/TP scales/injector constant on the chip.
9-44. Ya, Im slowely learning about the 944 DME. This big engine build up that im talking about is for my 968 (which I am going to take my time building). I'm current replacing the engine in my '84 944. I plan on putting in a 944 turbo motor. What I would like to be able to do, is use the motronic system, and stay under ABOUT 250hp for the time being (gonna use a small turbo, just cause I have it laying around).
I assume that i need to use a 951 AFM (cause its got the highest airflow capability right??). So is there any way to change a 924S computer to accept the 951 AFM? Or will I have to use a 951 DME? I guess it comes down to where the AFM data is stored (on the "chip" or someplace else).
What HP does the 951 AFM top out?
On a 300zx, I just use whatever MAF I want, and then change the VQ maps/TP scales/injector constant on the chip.
951 AFMs top out somewhere around 350HP.
12-08-2005, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by theedge
How is one belt doing more work? In the stock setup, the belt does all the work anyway. Hopes and dreams dont spin the other cam, the chain does, which is spun by the belt. More work would be if he put in race valve springs.
My bad, if you had done any homework, you would know the stock springs are a little to soft. If your going to just try to "wing it" then stock would be fine.
12-08-2005, 04:07 PM
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the edge...
so your saying that one could take an 86 944 n/a DME, pop in a 951 chip and it would run a 944 turbo motor? ALL i want to do is run 951 injectors and 951 AFM.
BTW, I dont want the KLR because im gonna use a garret turbo with internal wastegate (for now), plan to mount the turbo on the passenger side of the car. I dont think that I care about knock control for now... with 8:1 compression and running around 12lbs boost I shouldnt have to worry about knock too much (I also have a techedge wideband).
so your saying that one could take an 86 944 n/a DME, pop in a 951 chip and it would run a 944 turbo motor? ALL i want to do is run 951 injectors and 951 AFM.
BTW, I dont want the KLR because im gonna use a garret turbo with internal wastegate (for now), plan to mount the turbo on the passenger side of the car. I dont think that I care about knock control for now... with 8:1 compression and running around 12lbs boost I shouldnt have to worry about knock too much (I also have a techedge wideband).
12-08-2005, 04:40 PM
#69
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300 guy...
I don't mean any disrespect, but you have quite a bit to learn about 944 Turbo motors.
My advice is to spend 6 months poking around the 944 turbo forums to learn about turbos as they apply to the 944. Frankly right now you are asking for things that don't make any sense at all. This is not because you are dumb, but because you are missing so of the basics.
Firstly....
944 S2 Compression ratio is approx 10.9:1 Turbo compression is 8:1.
Running a turbo at 10.9:1 with the 944 head design (even 16v) is tough. I have seen it done, but only to low pressure levels. Go with 8:1 and you have much more option to crank up the boost.
Problem is there are no off the shelt 8:1 pistons for a 3.0L 16v motor. There proably are some 3.0L 8:1 pistons from the old 968 Turbo S day's but those are probably rare and expensive.
So you need to get custom or semi custom pistons not super hard, but a little bit complex since the alusi block these engines are make from require specially coated pistons.
Ok now that we have the pistons out of the way.... Intake manifold.
There are not off the self low cost intake manifolds for 16v turbo cars. They need to made from splicing 16v intake wit 8v Turbo intakes. Again not impossible, but not exactly simple. There are some expensive 100% custom intakes out there. These are nice and you probably could find one or a shop to make one, but don't expect it to be cheap.
DME & KLR
Well not sure about 944 NA DME vs 951 DME, but getting a 951 DME is not that hard. Given all the other things you would need to do getting a 951 DME is rather easy and it is probably not worth the hassle of an NA DME.
Injectors. 951 injectors are good for stock 951's or lightly modded ones. Start pushing real hp and you just replace with larger injectors.
AFM ... If you are going through all the this work you will want a MAF set-up so why even both with the stock AFM.
12 psi of boost is close to the stock boost of a 951 so 12pst with 8:1 CR and 3.0L should give you what 260-280 bhp. A stock 951 with aftermarket chip will do that easy. All for less than $500.
My guess is you will want to run more boost. I have seen Garrett turbo cars run 25 psi of boost on race gas and I'd guess that 18 psi is possible on street gas with 8:1 if you build it right.
Right side turbo is nice idea, but the space is the biggest issue. There is very little on that side of the car. I have only hear of a couple cars like that with on of them being a race car where the turbo is basicly in the passenger's foot well area. Not a good place for street car. Even if you find a place for it the plumbing will be a challenge. Hey a right side turbo is nice, but is one of the most difficult places to put a turbo. In fact the intergral wastgate turbo might in fact be a problem due to space needed for it.
So to turbo an S2 is not impossible, but alot of thing you talk about are either very hard to do or have much simpler and better solutions. These may be the way you turbo a 300Z, but not the best way to go about it for 944 based car.
I don't mean any disrespect, but you have quite a bit to learn about 944 Turbo motors.
My advice is to spend 6 months poking around the 944 turbo forums to learn about turbos as they apply to the 944. Frankly right now you are asking for things that don't make any sense at all. This is not because you are dumb, but because you are missing so of the basics.
Firstly....
944 S2 Compression ratio is approx 10.9:1 Turbo compression is 8:1.
Running a turbo at 10.9:1 with the 944 head design (even 16v) is tough. I have seen it done, but only to low pressure levels. Go with 8:1 and you have much more option to crank up the boost.
Problem is there are no off the shelt 8:1 pistons for a 3.0L 16v motor. There proably are some 3.0L 8:1 pistons from the old 968 Turbo S day's but those are probably rare and expensive.
So you need to get custom or semi custom pistons not super hard, but a little bit complex since the alusi block these engines are make from require specially coated pistons.
Ok now that we have the pistons out of the way.... Intake manifold.
There are not off the self low cost intake manifolds for 16v turbo cars. They need to made from splicing 16v intake wit 8v Turbo intakes. Again not impossible, but not exactly simple. There are some expensive 100% custom intakes out there. These are nice and you probably could find one or a shop to make one, but don't expect it to be cheap.
DME & KLR
Well not sure about 944 NA DME vs 951 DME, but getting a 951 DME is not that hard. Given all the other things you would need to do getting a 951 DME is rather easy and it is probably not worth the hassle of an NA DME.
Injectors. 951 injectors are good for stock 951's or lightly modded ones. Start pushing real hp and you just replace with larger injectors.
AFM ... If you are going through all the this work you will want a MAF set-up so why even both with the stock AFM.
12 psi of boost is close to the stock boost of a 951 so 12pst with 8:1 CR and 3.0L should give you what 260-280 bhp. A stock 951 with aftermarket chip will do that easy. All for less than $500.
My guess is you will want to run more boost. I have seen Garrett turbo cars run 25 psi of boost on race gas and I'd guess that 18 psi is possible on street gas with 8:1 if you build it right.
Right side turbo is nice idea, but the space is the biggest issue. There is very little on that side of the car. I have only hear of a couple cars like that with on of them being a race car where the turbo is basicly in the passenger's foot well area. Not a good place for street car. Even if you find a place for it the plumbing will be a challenge. Hey a right side turbo is nice, but is one of the most difficult places to put a turbo. In fact the intergral wastgate turbo might in fact be a problem due to space needed for it.
So to turbo an S2 is not impossible, but alot of thing you talk about are either very hard to do or have much simpler and better solutions. These may be the way you turbo a 300Z, but not the best way to go about it for 944 based car.
12-08-2005, 04:45 PM
#70
Race Director
Originally Posted by 300guy
I'm current replacing the engine in my '84 944. I plan on putting in a 944 turbo motor. What I would like to be able to do, is use the motronic system, and stay under ABOUT 250hp for the time being (gonna use a small turbo, just cause I have it laying around).
944 NA 8valve motor = 150 hp or so
968 motor bone stock = 236 hp
944 Turbo (k26/6 turbo) stock = 217 hp
944 Turbo (k26/8 turbo) stock = 250 hp
Do you plan to put a turbo on the 84 motor in your car now?
Or do plan to put a complete 944 Turbo motor in the car?
Remember a 944 turbo motor and an 2.5L 8v NA motor are the same except for the 8:1 pistons, ceramic coated exhaust ports, intake & exhaust manifold, turbo, engine management,injectors and few holes for oil cooling of the turbo. The basic block is the same.
With a bone stock 968 motor you are really close to the 250 hp mark anyway.
I guess I don't even understand what you are tring to accomplish?
12-08-2005, 06:13 PM
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I have a 944S2 motor, 84 944 n/a motor, 951 motor, and a 924S motor.
Long term project: turbo charge the S2 motor
short term project: rebuild and turbocharge a 2.5L motor for my '84 944. Im considering 8V or 16V (I have a 2.5L 16V head).
at this point Im not really sure what I want to do. I'm considering using the 16V head, 944 turbo rods and custom JE pistons coated by swaintech. There are guys with mercedes and bmw motors (alusil block) using aftermarket pistons with swaintech coating who dont have any problems. I'd like to try this out.... but DEFINATELY not on my 3L motor! Alternatively I could just use an 8V head.
M758, thats some good info that you put down there. I've been paying attention to this forum for a while (couple years?).
Long term project: turbo charge the S2 motor
short term project: rebuild and turbocharge a 2.5L motor for my '84 944. Im considering 8V or 16V (I have a 2.5L 16V head).
at this point Im not really sure what I want to do. I'm considering using the 16V head, 944 turbo rods and custom JE pistons coated by swaintech. There are guys with mercedes and bmw motors (alusil block) using aftermarket pistons with swaintech coating who dont have any problems. I'd like to try this out.... but DEFINATELY not on my 3L motor! Alternatively I could just use an 8V head.
M758, thats some good info that you put down there. I've been paying attention to this forum for a while (couple years?).
12-08-2005, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by M758
My guess is you will want to run more boost. I have seen Garrett turbo cars run 25 psi of boost on race gas and I'd guess that 18 psi is possible on street gas with 8:1 if you build it right.
12-08-2005, 09:50 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by 300guy
I have a 944S2 motor, 84 944 n/a motor, 951 motor, and a 924S motor.
Long term project: turbo charge the S2 motor
short term project: rebuild and turbocharge a 2.5L motor for my '84 944. Im considering 8V or 16V (I have a 2.5L 16V head).
Long term project: turbo charge the S2 motor
short term project: rebuild and turbocharge a 2.5L motor for my '84 944. Im considering 8V or 16V (I have a 2.5L 16V head).
Short term drop the complete 951 motor in the car. It will be work, but is relativly straight forward.
12-08-2005, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by M758
Right side turbo is nice idea, but the space is the biggest issue. There is very little on that side of the car. I have only hear of a couple cars like that with on of them being a race car where the turbo is basicly in the passenger's foot well area. Not a good place for street car. Even if you find a place for it the plumbing will be a challenge. Hey a right side turbo is nice, but is one of the most difficult places to put a turbo. In fact the intergral wastgate turbo might in fact be a problem due to space needed for it.
The first street car 944 Turbos were right side, by Halloway.
12-09-2005, 06:06 AM
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On a historical note, is the reason why the S/S2 head has the blanking plate for a second 'full length' cam because it is basically the same head as the 924 GTP, which did run two external cam sprockets?