Guess what GM dealer wants to change the brake fluid/
11-16-2005, 09:21 AM
#31
Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile
I especially love the "specials" a lot of places run. Yea, for $60 or $70 we'll CHECK (read the ads carefully) the fluids and brake pads. Uh huh.
Maybe I AM in the wrong line of work.
As P.T. Barnhum said, "there's one born every minute".
Maybe I AM in the wrong line of work.
As P.T. Barnhum said, "there's one born every minute".
For every person that claims they were taken advantage of, probably 5% actually got taken advantage of, the other 95% are just too stupid to understand what needs to be repaired. Finding the job somewhere else for 10 dollars less does NOT mean you were taken advantage of, do you cry to Target when you find a CD cheaper at Wal-Mart and tell everyone you know that Target is full of scam artists? I somehow doubt it.
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11-16-2005, 01:12 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
There's lots of good shops out there, but IME....
Many years ago (1990 - ish), I went to one shop that was having an oil change special ($10 Quaker State oil and Fram filter) and watched them do it. Drove 3 miles to a national shop for an alignment.
The service advisor there recommended I get the oil and filter changed cuz it was dirty
When I told them I had it done 5 minutes and 3 miles ago (his mechanics in the back were laughing at him), he had the gall to say, "well, sometimes after an oil change, if it hasn't been changed in a while it gets dirty right away, so we recommend an oil change with a $20 (?) special flushing agent" 
Few months later, a friend wanted to drop his car off at a national retail chain store that also sells tires, does mechanical work etc. and asked me to meet him there to give him a ride home.
He tells them he wants a tune-up. After they tell him the air filter is $30 extra and they'd have to order it (be a few days, bring the car back), they asked him if he wants an electronic engine diagnosis for an additional $50. He says, "Sure" because he wants his car running better.
I stepped in and asked, "What are you checking with your electronic engine diagnosis?" They say, "Well, it'll tell you if your spark plugs need to be replaced, make sure the timing is right, idle speed, etc."
I replied, "But you're replacing the plugs and checking all that stuff as part of the tune up, right? Is there anything the electronic engine diagnosis will do that you won't cover in your tune up?" They finally said, "No" so my friend declined this "service." (and we went to a local store and got the air filter that afternoon for $5)
Many years ago (1990 - ish), I went to one shop that was having an oil change special ($10 Quaker State oil and Fram filter) and watched them do it. Drove 3 miles to a national shop for an alignment.
The service advisor there recommended I get the oil and filter changed cuz it was dirty
When I told them I had it done 5 minutes and 3 miles ago (his mechanics in the back were laughing at him), he had the gall to say, "well, sometimes after an oil change, if it hasn't been changed in a while it gets dirty right away, so we recommend an oil change with a $20 (?) special flushing agent" Few months later, a friend wanted to drop his car off at a national retail chain store that also sells tires, does mechanical work etc. and asked me to meet him there to give him a ride home.
He tells them he wants a tune-up. After they tell him the air filter is $30 extra and they'd have to order it (be a few days, bring the car back), they asked him if he wants an electronic engine diagnosis for an additional $50. He says, "Sure" because he wants his car running better.
I stepped in and asked, "What are you checking with your electronic engine diagnosis?" They say, "Well, it'll tell you if your spark plugs need to be replaced, make sure the timing is right, idle speed, etc."
I replied, "But you're replacing the plugs and checking all that stuff as part of the tune up, right? Is there anything the electronic engine diagnosis will do that you won't cover in your tune up?" They finally said, "No" so my friend declined this "service." (and we went to a local store and got the air filter that afternoon for $5)
11-16-2005, 01:35 PM
#33
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Matt H
For every person that claims they were taken advantage of, probably 5% actually got taken advantage of, the other 95% are just too stupid to understand what needs to be repaired.
This is one reason I do almost all of my work: because I was sick of being ripped off and arguing about the bills. Whether it's extra "services" I don't need and I don't want or out-and-out lying about what was done or needed to be done, the bills get pumped up.
And then there's my poor, trusting wife. I've refused to let her deal with repairmen or service stations. They just have no integrity.
I'll spare you the stories, but don't tell me that 95% of people who think they're ripped off aren't.
11-16-2005, 02:55 PM
#34
Three Wheelin'
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I agree. I had my porsche worked on at a very reputable shop which charged for a new A-Arm at OEM price and it turned out to be remanufactured. How do I know? The replacement bushing kit didn't fit because a smaller ball was used with an inserted metal sleeve. On the other hand, other work done at this shop was top notch. So I guess it all depends.
11-16-2005, 04:30 PM
#35
Glen, we service a few HUNDRED THOUSAND cars a WEEK. We will do a BILLION dollars of service work this year (and last and next). The satisfaction ratings are in the 95% range. The 5% are all handled on a case by case basis. I assure you with complete confidence that for every 100 customers that say they were "ripped off" 95 of them were not.
A good example is the tune up story above. Do you guys know what a tune up consists of on a modern car? A spark plug change. Nothing more, nothing less. You want an air filter, oil change, etc. you are going to pay for it. If you bring me a car that runs like **** and I tell you it is 100 bucks to diagnose it, dont tell me that I am ripping you off. If it runs like **** there is a reason and a spark plug change is virtually NEVER going to fix it (yeah, there is always that 1/100 that will but I would give you back your diag money then). Have you ever taken your computer to be repaired? They charged you to look at it, right? Same thing.
It doesnt matter what the job, you can ALWAYS do it cheaper yourself. Hell, try complaining to your contractor that your house costs too much because they are charging you 400 dollars for a 50 dollar door. They will probably put down their tools and walk away. Have you ever eaten a steak at Ruth's Chris? 50 dollars for 11 dollars worth of meat. The list goes on and on. Being "ripped off" is almost always a basic misunderstanding of the service that is being provided. Dont get me wrong, there are a butt load of ****ty repair shops. There are thousands of underqualified service writers and estimators but the most common cause of the "I was ripped off" complaint is just a basic misunderstanding of what was needed due to a lack of poor communication.
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A good example is the tune up story above. Do you guys know what a tune up consists of on a modern car? A spark plug change. Nothing more, nothing less. You want an air filter, oil change, etc. you are going to pay for it. If you bring me a car that runs like **** and I tell you it is 100 bucks to diagnose it, dont tell me that I am ripping you off. If it runs like **** there is a reason and a spark plug change is virtually NEVER going to fix it (yeah, there is always that 1/100 that will but I would give you back your diag money then). Have you ever taken your computer to be repaired? They charged you to look at it, right? Same thing.
It doesnt matter what the job, you can ALWAYS do it cheaper yourself. Hell, try complaining to your contractor that your house costs too much because they are charging you 400 dollars for a 50 dollar door. They will probably put down their tools and walk away. Have you ever eaten a steak at Ruth's Chris? 50 dollars for 11 dollars worth of meat. The list goes on and on. Being "ripped off" is almost always a basic misunderstanding of the service that is being provided. Dont get me wrong, there are a butt load of ****ty repair shops. There are thousands of underqualified service writers and estimators but the most common cause of the "I was ripped off" complaint is just a basic misunderstanding of what was needed due to a lack of poor communication.
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11-16-2005, 05:14 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Hey Matt, I don't doubt your shop is honest.
My tuneup story is about a large national retail chain, about 15 years ago (so not a modern car). The service advisor, after thinking about it a few seconds, admitted there was nothing in their "electronic engine diagnosis" that wouldn't be taken care of in their tune up service.
As part of their tuneup (listed on their service board), they included a new air filter, replace plugs, examine distributor cap and wires, check and adjust timing, check and adjust belt tension (most cars), check and adjust idle speed.
Your point is well-taken that it's usually done cheaper yourself (a lot of DIYers manage to screw things up where it ends up costing a pro more to fix it - eg, what happens if I put my cam timing belt and don't tension properly? How much money did I save?
And I do all my own computer work - build, maintain, and service. Too many incompetent techs
On my "modern" car, a tune-up is new platinum plugs at 50,000 miles. Yep, that's it. I agree with you that people not understanding/miscommunicating is often the source of "I got ripped off" stories.
However, the national chain that advised me to get an oil change 5 minutes after my last oil change was clearly trying to rip me off (out of mild curiousity, I checked when I got home and the oil was a clean honey gold color - it was obvious they never even looked at the oil). the national chain that was trying to push their engine diagnosis service was either incompetent, unthinking or trying to rip my friend off.
Oh yeah, when I was living in an apartment, I had a Honda running like **** and dying, no time that week or garage to look at it myself. Took it to a national chain (they were a block from my apt), they changed the plugs, said the problem was a fouled plug and pronounced it cured. I paid for the plugs (cuz they did change them) but left thinking, "fouled plugs are usually a symptom, not a cause). Ran better for a while, but sure nuff, it died on the highway again. I felt ripped off that time, too (diagnosed myself and fixed in the apt parking lot, which was against the apt rules 
)
Normally I change my own oil, but occassionally pay for it when pressed for time. At one place, they suggested I replace the antifreeze on my new Toyota RAV4 because it was orangish and they thought it should be green (mind you, the new variously colored dex-cool type long-life antifreezes had been out for several years at the time).
Clearly, your chain does a good job (otherwise you would't do billions in sales), and there are a lot of idiot customers who pay for work they need but feel ripped off, but I've had several really poor experiences with a few national chains.
My tuneup story is about a large national retail chain, about 15 years ago (so not a modern car). The service advisor, after thinking about it a few seconds, admitted there was nothing in their "electronic engine diagnosis" that wouldn't be taken care of in their tune up service.
As part of their tuneup (listed on their service board), they included a new air filter, replace plugs, examine distributor cap and wires, check and adjust timing, check and adjust belt tension (most cars), check and adjust idle speed.
Your point is well-taken that it's usually done cheaper yourself (a lot of DIYers manage to screw things up where it ends up costing a pro more to fix it - eg, what happens if I put my cam timing belt and don't tension properly? How much money did I save?
And I do all my own computer work - build, maintain, and service. Too many incompetent techs
On my "modern" car, a tune-up is new platinum plugs at 50,000 miles. Yep, that's it. I agree with you that people not understanding/miscommunicating is often the source of "I got ripped off" stories.
However, the national chain that advised me to get an oil change 5 minutes after my last oil change was clearly trying to rip me off (out of mild curiousity, I checked when I got home and the oil was a clean honey gold color - it was obvious they never even looked at the oil). the national chain that was trying to push their engine diagnosis service was either incompetent, unthinking or trying to rip my friend off.
If it runs like **** there is a reason and a spark plug change is virtually NEVER going to fix it
)Normally I change my own oil, but occassionally pay for it when pressed for time. At one place, they suggested I replace the antifreeze on my new Toyota RAV4 because it was orangish and they thought it should be green (mind you, the new variously colored dex-cool type long-life antifreezes had been out for several years at the time).
Clearly, your chain does a good job (otherwise you would't do billions in sales), and there are a lot of idiot customers who pay for work they need but feel ripped off, but I've had several really poor experiences with a few national chains.
11-16-2005, 05:24 PM
#37
Nordschleife Master
That's not what I mean. Here's two:
I needed a seal put on a GM steering gear. It needed some large socket and I figured to avoid getting into 3/4" sockets. I provided the seal. They charge me the shop time plus 1 hour for broken bolts that didn't need replacing. Plus a $40 charge for suspension inspection. I had them remove the inspection charge as I hadn't asked for it. The service manager said something like "He's got to make money somehow."
Took the 928 in to have a four-wheel alignment. They quoted a flat rate of $180 or thereabouts. I get it back and they've only done the fronts because "the backs won't move." The mechanic comes out to explain this all to me and that he spent a lot of time trying. I get under there and the nuts come loose and the cams are all un-frozen. He just didn't want to take the time to do it.
Then there was the time our oven went out. The first repair guy quoted $850 because "the wiring is shot" and they'd have to take it out, re-wire it and bring it back. The real problem was a burned element that cost me $35 to replace. Once I knew what to look for, I could see where it had left a white spot on the back wall of the oven. Certainly the "pro" could see that, too.
Or how about those oil change places? When my wife's car was under warranty she took it to the local Vavoline shop. I found the bill once and it was $70! They had pressured her to have filters changed and special gas treatments. She said "they were pretty insistent."
I've got about ten or twenty more of these. Plumbers are the worst.
I needed a seal put on a GM steering gear. It needed some large socket and I figured to avoid getting into 3/4" sockets. I provided the seal. They charge me the shop time plus 1 hour for broken bolts that didn't need replacing. Plus a $40 charge for suspension inspection. I had them remove the inspection charge as I hadn't asked for it. The service manager said something like "He's got to make money somehow."
Took the 928 in to have a four-wheel alignment. They quoted a flat rate of $180 or thereabouts. I get it back and they've only done the fronts because "the backs won't move." The mechanic comes out to explain this all to me and that he spent a lot of time trying. I get under there and the nuts come loose and the cams are all un-frozen. He just didn't want to take the time to do it.
Then there was the time our oven went out. The first repair guy quoted $850 because "the wiring is shot" and they'd have to take it out, re-wire it and bring it back. The real problem was a burned element that cost me $35 to replace. Once I knew what to look for, I could see where it had left a white spot on the back wall of the oven. Certainly the "pro" could see that, too.
Or how about those oil change places? When my wife's car was under warranty she took it to the local Vavoline shop. I found the bill once and it was $70! They had pressured her to have filters changed and special gas treatments. She said "they were pretty insistent."
I've got about ten or twenty more of these. Plumbers are the worst.
11-16-2005, 05:42 PM
#38
Addic
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by GlenL
Plumbers are the worst.
i tell them to take the tape off and put the line back on and it will quit leaking. $0 cost but the plumber wanted at least 60 just for coming back out there when he put the tape on to begin with..
there are definatly some cooks running around out there
11-17-2005, 12:16 AM
#39
Drifting
While there are, no doubt, crooks out there I have to belive that most of the poor experiences are due to lack of or poor comunication. If the service advisor doesn't do a proper job of informing you what and why, then you don't belive/trust him or her, and think you are being ripped off. Another problem is the training of the service advisors, if they do not know how to properly inform you, they may come up with some weird out of the blue type stuff to convince you to do the work (that is legitimatly needed, and recomended). Maintanence work is almost imposible to tell if it's been done in the past, so if the car has more than 20K on the clock, I'm gonna tell you it's a good idea to do a fuel injection service. If the car has the original hoses on at 80K, I'm going to explain to you the need to have them replaced. Am I going to tell you that you'll kill your family if you don't? No. Now on the other side, if I don't tell you to replace the hoses, and your wife and kids get stranded on the highway. Who's the first person you are going to want to strangle? So please try to understand, I'm not trying to "rip you off", only give you information that you can use to make an informed decision about the maintanence needs of your vehicle.
11-17-2005, 11:50 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by KevinBaker
While there are, no doubt, crooks out there I have to belive that most of the poor experiences are due to lack of or poor comunication.
I remember a service manager patiently explaining to a customer that the shop would not replace his hoses for free or pay another shop to do it, like the customer wanted.
The problem? Customer wanted radiator system tested. Shop pressure tests the system, and the hoses split and blow antifreeze. Customer refuses to believe that pressure testing is normal and thinks the shop is trying to rip him off, thinks it's the shops fault for pressurizing the system!
11-17-2005, 02:55 PM
#41
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From my experience with chain-store repair shops have been pretty good. I've only taken the car in for alignment and tire mounting, but overall things have been good. My brother had some trouble recently with a national chain tire store.
He took the 912E in to have a leak in his tire repaired and listen to this. The shop said the valve stem needed to replaced and it would be a few dollars, so he agreed. They removed the tire and cut off the existing valve stem (on a fuchs wheel). Then they realized they did not have valve stems for this type of wheel? So they tell him this, he says ok just put the old one back on (the tire was letting air out, but slowly). They told him they cut it off.
My brother goes out to look at what they've one and notices the inner edge of his tire had a large chunk missing. The service guy tried to explain to my brother the tire came in like that...my brother drove the car there and this tire was now missing part of the sidewall. 
He gets the manager who agrees their machine messed up his tire (which was less than 6 months old and had not been driven much as the 912 is not his DD). They ended up agreeing to replace the tire for free and figured out what valve stem went on the wheel. So for less than 5 dollars he received a new tire! 
(after some hassle)
I guess the moral of this thread is to know what you want repaired when taking your car to a repair shop or you might get more than you bargain for.
He took the 912E in to have a leak in his tire repaired and listen to this. The shop said the valve stem needed to replaced and it would be a few dollars, so he agreed. They removed the tire and cut off the existing valve stem (on a fuchs wheel). Then they realized they did not have valve stems for this type of wheel? So they tell him this, he says ok just put the old one back on (the tire was letting air out, but slowly). They told him they cut it off.
My brother goes out to look at what they've one and notices the inner edge of his tire had a large chunk missing. The service guy tried to explain to my brother the tire came in like that...my brother drove the car there and this tire was now missing part of the sidewall. He gets the manager who agrees their machine messed up his tire (which was less than 6 months old and had not been driven much as the 912 is not his DD). They ended up agreeing to replace the tire for free and figured out what valve stem went on the wheel. So for less than 5 dollars he received a new tire! (after some hassle)I guess the moral of this thread is to know what you want repaired when taking your car to a repair shop or you might get more than you bargain for.
11-17-2005, 05:44 PM
#42
Captain Obvious
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Originally Posted by Robert D
Oh, and the POS 20 dollar "great neck" or whatever toolkits from Autozone are trash. Broke both of the ratchets the first time I used them.
I also have two set of Great Neck (giraffe logo) wrench sets that I bought 2 year sago at Wal-Mart. However, I’ve been beating on them ever since and they are still in excellent shape. You must have gotten a crappy batch, or since mine was an early batch, they could have made them stronger. Also it’s possible that they forgot to heat treat the wrenches during production.
11-17-2005, 06:22 PM
#43
Race Car
Why does it cost more than we think to have cars serviced? Try to get a bureau of automotive repair number and conform to ALL the regulations involved. A shop cannot do what we are able to as private individuals. If we have an oil spill in our driveway, no one is going to come and cite you for hosing it down with water. Try that at a shop and you will be dealing with THOUSANDs of dollars of fines. How many people have separate drums for used oil, coolant, transmission fluid, and parts cleaning fluid that you have to PAY someone to come and tag before they dispose of it? Anyone here familiar with PAYING WORKER'S COMPENSATION insurance for an employee in the automotive field? This is not to mention insurance for customer's cars and liability for anything and anyone in your facility. Of course they make money like any other business but lets get real here, paying a qualified technician to be able to work on especially the newer cars is not cheap. Heck, most people here can't even diagnose a no start problem on a 20 year old car let alone an OBDII car that requires special equipment that costs money and training to be able to use that equipment. I wish everyone can have the pleasure of running a business and being a part of the customer service staff. BTW, if you "check" someone's brake fluid level and charge them, you are liable if the customer crash their car due to low brake fluid level. I am not saying charging $60 is justified, but it does take time and there is a cost of doing business here.
11-17-2005, 06:44 PM
#44
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Right legoland, you need to expect to pay out for someone to do work on your car. However, having someone lie to you in order to make money is something everyone needs to be aware of as well. I don't know if anybody has stated there being a problem with the labor rates for working on our cars. It is the deceitfull actions some mechanics have in order to make money.
For instance, if you knew nothing of computers...and you paid someone to come fix an issue you had with your once fast computer, now operating slowly; and they were to "recommend" you scrap your hard-drive when the problem was really a virus or spyware, which could be fixed by formatting your existing drive. This would be the equivalent to going for a brake fluid flush/bleed, and them recommending you replace the pads or rotors even though they still have life left on them. It is deceitfull, but that is how some businesses sadly are run.
For instance, if you knew nothing of computers...and you paid someone to come fix an issue you had with your once fast computer, now operating slowly; and they were to "recommend" you scrap your hard-drive when the problem was really a virus or spyware, which could be fixed by formatting your existing drive. This would be the equivalent to going for a brake fluid flush/bleed, and them recommending you replace the pads or rotors even though they still have life left on them. It is deceitfull, but that is how some businesses sadly are run.
11-17-2005, 07:26 PM
#45
Race Car
Deceitful people suck no matter if they are in a business or not. In the long run, they cannot last or do well. I know a very good mechanic who will notify his customer when brake pads are less than 50 percent and recommend replacement at 30 percent. Technically, they can still drive on the pads to less than 30 percent. I have also seen instances where the outside pad appears to have 50 percent and the inside pad is down to 10 for some reason and one cannot see that without taking the wheels off. Also, I have seen cases where the rotors are not warped but below minimum thickness with a big lip at the outer edge. If a shop charged for checking the brakes and does not recommend replacement (even though there seems to be no problems with the rotors), they may be liable for a lawsuit in the case of an accident caused by the thin rotors. If the rotors are replaced, new pads have to be installed or the used pads (even with 99% left) may make groves on the new rotor causing accelerated irregular wear. To an unknowing person, they may not understand why nearly new pads will have to be replaced after rotor replacement. These are some scenarios where miscommunication can occur between the customer and shops.