Hot start problem - that was strange
11-07-2005, 10:45 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by Manning
Well, I want to think it is electrical, but the temperature variable has me thinking it is something getting heat soaked after the car sits for a few minutes and either causing vapor lock or ?
To review:
Car starts perfect when cold.
No gas smell at any time
Car runs perfect when it starts or restarts. No hesitation, idle is perfect.
Car will restart just fine if I shut it off and then restart it within a couple minutes. I forgot to mention that.
Car will not restart if it sits for maybe 10 minutes or more until something cools down. The cooling occurs by some means that I am not sure of, whether opening the hood or what. Then once whatever cools down the car starts as if nothing happened. So if I drive to the office and let it sit there while I am at work I can go out at the end of the day and it starts right up, no problem.
What is new-ish on the car, for the most part from me wanting to replace old stuff as it comes to mind.
Injectors - less than 2 years old
DME Temp sensor - 1 year old
O2 sensor - 4 or 5 years old
check valve - 2 years old
Fuel filter - maybe 2 years old
ISV - almost 2 years old
All vacuum lines - 4 months old
FPR - 4 months old
speed and ref sensors - 2 years old
Relay - between 4 and 6 months old
all solder joints have been checked and resoldered if suspect on the DME within the past 6 months
The only thing that is not new is the fuel pump.
Off course any of the new stuff could be bad. I will have to take the car out and drive it then part it for a few and see what happens, then diagnose from there.
To review:
Car starts perfect when cold.
No gas smell at any time
Car runs perfect when it starts or restarts. No hesitation, idle is perfect.
Car will restart just fine if I shut it off and then restart it within a couple minutes. I forgot to mention that.
Car will not restart if it sits for maybe 10 minutes or more until something cools down. The cooling occurs by some means that I am not sure of, whether opening the hood or what. Then once whatever cools down the car starts as if nothing happened. So if I drive to the office and let it sit there while I am at work I can go out at the end of the day and it starts right up, no problem.
What is new-ish on the car, for the most part from me wanting to replace old stuff as it comes to mind.
Injectors - less than 2 years old
DME Temp sensor - 1 year old
O2 sensor - 4 or 5 years old
check valve - 2 years old
Fuel filter - maybe 2 years old
ISV - almost 2 years old
All vacuum lines - 4 months old
FPR - 4 months old
speed and ref sensors - 2 years old
Relay - between 4 and 6 months old
all solder joints have been checked and resoldered if suspect on the DME within the past 6 months
The only thing that is not new is the fuel pump.
Off course any of the new stuff could be bad. I will have to take the car out and drive it then part it for a few and see what happens, then diagnose from there.
You should really try wiggling those sensor connectors. It works for me everytime. My theory is that when the engine bay temperature and humidity index reach a critical point, the contacts at the connectors are prevented from properly conducting the signal from the ref and speed sensors. Wiggling the connectors allows the contacts to properly "reconnect" and then the engine can start properly.
Regards
11-07-2005, 04:43 PM
#19
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Under normal starting I believe it does move. I'll check when I get home. I will have to wait until the next time I have the hot start issue to check what it does then though 
As far as gap is concerned, why would this have only just now started happening? I replaced the sensors 2 years ago, without removing the bracket, and only just now started having this issue. I'm not sayng that isn't the issue, just don't know why it would have just now started to happen.
Here is something to think about though. It just occurred to me that this issue started after I started to have to park on the driveway while our kitchen is being remodeled (garage full of cabinets and tools). We have had a lot of rain of late, so maybe the scupper in the well in front of the windsheild is dumping rain water onto the sensors and gunking them up. Come to think of it, should there be a plug of sorts in the inspection hole on top of the bell housing? Maybe some water is getting in there and steams up when the car runs and the steam/humidity fouls the sensors?
As far as gap is concerned, why would this have only just now started happening? I replaced the sensors 2 years ago, without removing the bracket, and only just now started having this issue. I'm not sayng that isn't the issue, just don't know why it would have just now started to happen.
Here is something to think about though. It just occurred to me that this issue started after I started to have to park on the driveway while our kitchen is being remodeled (garage full of cabinets and tools). We have had a lot of rain of late, so maybe the scupper in the well in front of the windsheild is dumping rain water onto the sensors and gunking them up. Come to think of it, should there be a plug of sorts in the inspection hole on top of the bell housing? Maybe some water is getting in there and steams up when the car runs and the steam/humidity fouls the sensors?
11-07-2005, 05:00 PM
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Michael---as you mentioned, could be heat soak. Are your heat shields in place? Heat soak can affect the armature (bendix) of the starter motor. If it is turning over slowly, it could very well be the starter.
After you get home from driving for awhile (get 'er nice & hot), try starting. If you get the no-start condition, try spraying a stream of water (like from a garden hose) on the starter to cool it off. Then try starting it.
After you get home from driving for awhile (get 'er nice & hot), try starting. If you get the no-start condition, try spraying a stream of water (like from a garden hose) on the starter to cool it off. Then try starting it.
11-07-2005, 05:26 PM
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No, the starter turns over just fine in every situation. I keep waiting for that to start acting up, but it just keeps on keepin on. The other day when it happened I drove about 30 minutes down to Mogador from Akron and knowing the car had issues in the past with restarting I waited a couple minutes and restarted and it fired right up. Then I went in the store and when I came out it wouldn't start. Turned over just fine, just wouldn't start. I am thinking I will just put it up for the winter and deal with it this spring, but I know I won't be able to just leave it at that. Besides I still need to fill the tank before storing it, so that means I have to drive to the gas station and fill up.
Speaking of which, I had this issue a really long time ago, maybe 4 or 5 years ago, it happened once when I went up to the service station to air the tires. So I parked and turned the car off and when I got back in the car it wouldn't start. Well, since I also needed to fill with gas I went ahead and pushed the car over to a pump (yeah it looked silly) and when I finished filling up I decided what the heck and tried to start it and it fired right up. Co-inky-dink? Did the fuel out of the in ground tank cool the fuel pump and clear the vapor lock? Had I waited long enough and whatever the heat soaked part was had cooled down? In any event it had not happened again until just a few weeks ago.
Speaking of which, I had this issue a really long time ago, maybe 4 or 5 years ago, it happened once when I went up to the service station to air the tires. So I parked and turned the car off and when I got back in the car it wouldn't start. Well, since I also needed to fill with gas I went ahead and pushed the car over to a pump (yeah it looked silly) and when I finished filling up I decided what the heck and tried to start it and it fired right up. Co-inky-dink? Did the fuel out of the in ground tank cool the fuel pump and clear the vapor lock? Had I waited long enough and whatever the heat soaked part was had cooled down? In any event it had not happened again until just a few weeks ago.
11-07-2005, 09:47 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by Zero10
It could be a matter of the speed/reference sensors being incorrectly gapped as well. Did you check if the tach wiggles?
I will try and duplicate the hot start problem maybe tomorrow evening.
11-07-2005, 11:23 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Sounds like my car except it'll do it when cold or hot. Whenever mine won't start, the tach won't bounce. I'm guessing frayed wires/insulation in the wiring harness, or the DME/KLR needs to have all it's connections resoldered. Wiggling the reference sensor connections has worked for me also. One time when the tach wouldn't bounce, I verified with a spark tester that I wasn't getting a spark. Usually if I try it a couple more times, it'll start and run perfect. Most I've had to wait is 5min.
11-14-2005, 01:05 AM
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UPDATE
OK, Mike1982 and I drove the car around for a while today, filled with gas, drove some more, parked for 10 or 15 minutes and tried to restart, and it restarted first time. Hmm? So we left it to sit for several more minute, and it restarts without a hitch. So we drive it back over to his house, let it sit for a while and it restarts right up. So we go for a 20 or 30 minute drive in his car (nice!) and would you believe it, when we got back it started right up!
I don't know, but it must have to be a specific combination of ambient temperature, humidity, planets, etc. In any case it will probably be next spring or summer before it starts acting up again.
OK, Mike1982 and I drove the car around for a while today, filled with gas, drove some more, parked for 10 or 15 minutes and tried to restart, and it restarted first time. Hmm? So we left it to sit for several more minute, and it restarts without a hitch. So we drive it back over to his house, let it sit for a while and it restarts right up. So we go for a 20 or 30 minute drive in his car (nice!) and would you believe it, when we got back it started right up!
I don't know, but it must have to be a specific combination of ambient temperature, humidity, planets, etc. In any case it will probably be next spring or summer before it starts acting up again.
11-23-2005, 12:04 AM
#27
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Did you ever find the cause of this? My car had almost exactly the same behavior, except it also sometimes likes to die on me while ideling at a stop light for too long.
I've replaced the reference sensors, DME relay and coil and checked all solder connections in the DME/KLR. I thought I found the problem when I found frayed and shorting wires to one of the reference sensors, but splicing in a new connector on the harnes side did not change anything.
My only solution so far has been to leave the hood up for a couple minures, then it fires right up. Also, I've pretty much narrowed it down to the injectors not fireing when this happens.
I've replaced the reference sensors, DME relay and coil and checked all solder connections in the DME/KLR. I thought I found the problem when I found frayed and shorting wires to one of the reference sensors, but splicing in a new connector on the harnes side did not change anything.
My only solution so far has been to leave the hood up for a couple minures, then it fires right up. Also, I've pretty much narrowed it down to the injectors not fireing when this happens.
11-23-2005, 12:10 AM
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No, not yet. Actually it has been so cool out lately, what with winter fast approaching, that I haven't been able to reproduce the problem. It will have to wait until next Spring when I start driving it again. I think the outside temperature has to be warm as well as the temperature of the vehicle. Either that or it was a two month long recurring fluke.
11-23-2005, 01:06 AM
#29
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I didnt read the whole thread, but my hot start problem was traced to a bad speed sensor. I have no idea why.. but i swapped it out and havent had a probelm sense.
11-23-2005, 11:54 PM
#30
On a related subject, my car will sometimes stall after being restarted with a 15-30 minute interval. The heat soak never prevents it from starting but when it does start it will not hold idle and stall or the idle goes very low and then slowly comes back up to normal. I can restart easily and then revving it up a bit seems to clear whatever condition is causing it. I did have the injectors cleaned & flow checked recently and nothing was mentioned about leaks (Witch Hunter) although these symptoms sound like an over rich condition during heat soak. Any other ideas?