Looking for all nine 1987 U.S. Turbo Cup cars
11-05-2005, 10:17 AM
#61
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Thread Starter
Never noticed the contradiction with the Feb 88 date of that early (issue #7) Excellence magazine. You're probably right, the article was submitted early, but not published until too late!
Other news: We've located two more cars!
Don Velcio of Cleveland owns 165110, the original BFG tire test car.
And I have an owner name for 165108, waiting to get his permission before publishing his name. I'll do a broader update on all the cars at that time.
Seven down, two to go: Still looking for 165101 and 165104!
Other news: We've located two more cars!
Don Velcio of Cleveland owns 165110, the original BFG tire test car.
And I have an owner name for 165108, waiting to get his permission before publishing his name. I'll do a broader update on all the cars at that time.
Seven down, two to go: Still looking for 165101 and 165104!
11-05-2005, 04:10 PM
#62
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Wow, I know Don Velcio, he is a regualr at the NOR PCA Driver's schools. I had no idea his car was one of THESE! I may see him tonight, do you want a contact phone # or maybe I'll just ask him to check out this thread!
11-05-2005, 08:43 PM
#64
Geaux Tigers!
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Might be a false lead but does anyone else remember a "Cup" car coming up on Ebay about 2-3 years ago. I don't remember if it was a Canadian Cup or not. If my memory serves correctly it was in Florida and was Red with Rothmans livery. Being on Ebay it could have gone anywhere.
11-05-2005, 09:45 PM
#65
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Thread Starter
Here's an excerpt from an interesting article on factory race cars in general, see pages 9&10 from this pdf: https://www.pca.org/racing/newsletters/CRN-2005.3.pdf
“Years ago I started talking to people that had bought factory cars or had some association with them, I began looking for rare cars and buying them. I would eventually sell them, but in the meantime, I had created a network of what to buy and where to buy it.
I have been lucky enough to own some really cool cars, including a 934, Champion Porsche's GT2, Rothman's Turbo Cup , and several Supercups, including a GT3 Cup. Please don't take it as bragging; I think I have found a way to race and still get money back out of cars when I sell them.
I found out the hard way that building a racecar from a street car is never the same as factory racecar. To be quite honest, I think by the time you build a racecar from a street car, you'll have more money in it, than you'll get back out of it. That, in a nutshell, is why I would always want to own and drive a factory car.
Bottom line, Alwin Springer once told me that you never really own a factory racecar, Porsche is only letting you borrow it for a while.
“Years ago I started talking to people that had bought factory cars or had some association with them, I began looking for rare cars and buying them. I would eventually sell them, but in the meantime, I had created a network of what to buy and where to buy it.
I have been lucky enough to own some really cool cars, including a 934, Champion Porsche's GT2, Rothman's Turbo Cup , and several Supercups, including a GT3 Cup. Please don't take it as bragging; I think I have found a way to race and still get money back out of cars when I sell them.
I found out the hard way that building a racecar from a street car is never the same as factory racecar. To be quite honest, I think by the time you build a racecar from a street car, you'll have more money in it, than you'll get back out of it. That, in a nutshell, is why I would always want to own and drive a factory car.
Bottom line, Alwin Springer once told me that you never really own a factory racecar, Porsche is only letting you borrow it for a while.
11-06-2005, 12:09 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ELLSSUU
Might be a false lead but does anyone else remember a "Cup" car coming up on Ebay about 2-3 years ago. I don't remember if it was a Canadian Cup or not. If my memory serves correctly it was in Florida and was Red with Rothmans livery. Being on Ebay it could have gone anywhere.
11-09-2005, 12:06 AM
#67
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Oddjob
Also, your list of specs includes close ratio 5th gear. This has always been somewhat of a mystery. I have heard that the Canadian Rothmans cars had a shorter 5th gear, but the Euro Turbo Cups did not (they had the standard gear box ratios). The previous owner of #103 swore that his transmission also had the standard ratios (it has since been swapped out with an S2 trans). Have you ever compared your car with another standard turbo (rpm in 5th at certain speeds). I would be very interested to know if the US cars did or did not actually have the short 5th gear - and what the ratio is if it is indeed shorter (could never get the answer out of the Canadian car owners that Ive spoken to).
For comparison, a standard turbo 5th gear is very close to 2300rpm at 60mph.
For comparison, a standard turbo 5th gear is very close to 2300rpm at 60mph.
With 245-45-16's all around, I show 3000 at 69 mph, which would be 2600 at 60. That's about .88 of your tach reading.
But then I checked 4th gear, which was turning 4000 at 75 mph, which would be 3200 at 60mph.
The standard 4th gear is 1.034, and the standard 5th is .829, meaning the tach should read .829/1.034= 80% lower when you shift from 4th to 5th.
Using my numbers of 2600 at 60 in 4th and 3200 at 60 in 5th, that proves that the relationship between 4th and 5th is the same as in a standard car. (Since 2600/3200 = .81)
New theory:
So maybe the tranny gears are the same, but the final drive is shorter? I see the non-turbo cars have a 3.89 final drive instead of the 3.38 of the turbos. That would just about exactly explain the difference.
11-09-2005, 09:03 AM
#68
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A 3.89 is pretty far from a 3.38. The 944 Turbo S that was tested in C&D, June '88, was a customer's car that had been specially ordered w/a 3.89 from the factory- I've asked around on this list & everyone, so far, has told me that all production 951's came w/a 3.38. Not sure how the guy thought to do this... C&D said it was faster, although 0-60 was unchanged (5.5) b/c they had to shift into 3rd & it ran 13.9 @ 1/4 (3/10 faster than any other 951S)... C&D says 5th redlined at ~140mph. My math shows 145. If we call it 142.5, then you get 22.27mph / 1000rpm. So, 45 @ 2000, 67 @ 3000, 89 @ 4000, & 111 @ 5000... This is somewhat close to your 60 @ 2600, but, I think you'd know it if you had the 3.89- C&D listed the redlines at: 1st- 33, 2nd- 56, 3rd- 83, 4th- 113, & 5th- 140...
Do you think you might get a chance to check it again, but, at a higher speed, anytime soon? I have no idea why/how this happens, but.... my tach/speedo ratio is off in the ~60mph to ~90mph zone... My speedo is definately right-on though.... I've compared it numerous times w/other cars, &, more importantly, have checked it w/many radar signs over the years... I've checked it from as low as ~30mph all the way up to 127 & my speedo's about as perfect as it could possibly be, &, by the time I'm at 4000rpm in 5th, I'm running a little over 100mph... W/stock RD, 4000rpm should be 104.4 by the formula I've always used... My tach is right on at 50mph- just a hair under 2000rpms- then, it's back on at 100mph showing a little under 4000rpms.... BUT, at 80, I'm showing ~3300rpm instead of 3065rpm (26.1mph / 1000rpm)... I have no idea why, but, the speed seems to be dead-on...
Are there any other special series 944's out there other than the Turbo Cup & Rothmans? Also, does your's have a badge on the back? I know that one country had a badge that said "Turbo Cup." I always wanted one of those...
Do you think you might get a chance to check it again, but, at a higher speed, anytime soon? I have no idea why/how this happens, but.... my tach/speedo ratio is off in the ~60mph to ~90mph zone... My speedo is definately right-on though.... I've compared it numerous times w/other cars, &, more importantly, have checked it w/many radar signs over the years... I've checked it from as low as ~30mph all the way up to 127 & my speedo's about as perfect as it could possibly be, &, by the time I'm at 4000rpm in 5th, I'm running a little over 100mph... W/stock RD, 4000rpm should be 104.4 by the formula I've always used... My tach is right on at 50mph- just a hair under 2000rpms- then, it's back on at 100mph showing a little under 4000rpms.... BUT, at 80, I'm showing ~3300rpm instead of 3065rpm (26.1mph / 1000rpm)... I have no idea why, but, the speed seems to be dead-on...
Are there any other special series 944's out there other than the Turbo Cup & Rothmans? Also, does your's have a badge on the back? I know that one country had a badge that said "Turbo Cup." I always wanted one of those...
11-09-2005, 09:20 AM
#69
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Thread Starter
Well, I've never driven any other 944 of any kind, so I wouldn't have a feel for whether the final drive is shorter than a regular 951 or not. But it has always felt short to me.
I'm not a drag race guy, but when I developed the G-Timer accelerometers for Escort, I did a couple runs in my car. Both had a 2.1 60 ft time (not great), and were 13.7 @ 101.
When I was checking my rpm/speeds a few days ago, my car was consistent, in 5th measuring 2800 at 65, 3000 at 69, 3200 at 74, and 3400 at 79. All about 23mph/100 rpm.
The difference between 3.89 and 3.38 is .87, almost exactly the difference between your tach readings and mine.
The weather is supposed to be nice tomorrow. I'll see if I can dig up an inductive tach to clip to a sparkplug wire, and I'll use a radar or GPS unit for speed.
I'm also going to try to contact SCCA and see about getting a copy of the paperwork where the cars were approved for the series. That should be very specific.
Oh, my car came with the standard plastic "turbo" emblem and the lower "Porsche" decal that goes across the rear above the bumper, but I peeled both off right after I bought the car.
I'm not a drag race guy, but when I developed the G-Timer accelerometers for Escort, I did a couple runs in my car. Both had a 2.1 60 ft time (not great), and were 13.7 @ 101.
When I was checking my rpm/speeds a few days ago, my car was consistent, in 5th measuring 2800 at 65, 3000 at 69, 3200 at 74, and 3400 at 79. All about 23mph/100 rpm.
The difference between 3.89 and 3.38 is .87, almost exactly the difference between your tach readings and mine.
The weather is supposed to be nice tomorrow. I'll see if I can dig up an inductive tach to clip to a sparkplug wire, and I'll use a radar or GPS unit for speed.
I'm also going to try to contact SCCA and see about getting a copy of the paperwork where the cars were approved for the series. That should be very specific.
Oh, my car came with the standard plastic "turbo" emblem and the lower "Porsche" decal that goes across the rear above the bumper, but I peeled both off right after I bought the car.
11-09-2005, 09:33 AM
#70
Race Director
Originally Posted by centerpunch
So maybe the tranny gears are the same, but the final drive is shorter? I see the non-turbo cars have a 3.89 final drive instead of the 3.38 of the turbos. That would just about exactly explain the difference.
Of course, anything is possible as Cup cars were very limited production models that were constantly evolving and had lots of little bits that were not commonly available.
11-09-2005, 09:42 AM
#71
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
There is one serious difference between the 9 Escort cars and the other Turbo Cup cars.
In the Turbo Cup races, the cars were competing against themselves, so absolute performance didn't really matter.
In the Escort series, they were competing against Corvettes. So it's possible that these nine cars indeed have some differences, perhaps some that aren't even documented.
(Of course, this may all be as simple as my car having an inaccurate tach or speedometer.)
In the Turbo Cup races, the cars were competing against themselves, so absolute performance didn't really matter.
In the Escort series, they were competing against Corvettes. So it's possible that these nine cars indeed have some differences, perhaps some that aren't even documented.
(Of course, this may all be as simple as my car having an inaccurate tach or speedometer.)
11-09-2005, 10:41 AM
#72
Rennlist Member
The "Turbo Cup" badging was used for French marketed street Turbo S (M758) cars and actually had nothing to do with any of the motorsport cars.
As Tifo mentioned above, the regular production n/a 3.889 rear end and the 944S 3.889 rear would very likely only last for a very short time in a turbo, especially in one that is running more power/torque.
The S2 R&P (3.875) is strong enough, but the production parts did not show up until MY89 - which means they would have been available on the assembly line early in '88. Possible that the Motorsports department was playing with and testing prototypes of the shorter/stronger R&P much earlier than that, but this would be complete speculation.
w/ 3.375 R&P and standard turbo gear sets:
_______2400_____2600____2800____3000____3200
4th------51mph------55--------59---------63--------67
5th-------63----------68--------73---------79--------84
w/ 3.875 R&P and standard turbo gear sets:
_______2400_____2600____2800____3000____3200
4th------44mph------48--------51---------55--------59
5th-------55----------60--------64---------69--------73
Paul, does your transmission have the external oil cooler loop?
I had heard some 3rd hand information that a guy that crewed one of these cars in the Escort series had said the car did have a short R&P, but all other information, including the #103 car, has indicated that they used the standard ratios - that is until now....
As Tifo mentioned above, the regular production n/a 3.889 rear end and the 944S 3.889 rear would very likely only last for a very short time in a turbo, especially in one that is running more power/torque.
The S2 R&P (3.875) is strong enough, but the production parts did not show up until MY89 - which means they would have been available on the assembly line early in '88. Possible that the Motorsports department was playing with and testing prototypes of the shorter/stronger R&P much earlier than that, but this would be complete speculation.
w/ 3.375 R&P and standard turbo gear sets:
_______2400_____2600____2800____3000____3200
4th------51mph------55--------59---------63--------67
5th-------63----------68--------73---------79--------84
w/ 3.875 R&P and standard turbo gear sets:
_______2400_____2600____2800____3000____3200
4th------44mph------48--------51---------55--------59
5th-------55----------60--------64---------69--------73
Paul, does your transmission have the external oil cooler loop?
I had heard some 3rd hand information that a guy that crewed one of these cars in the Escort series had said the car did have a short R&P, but all other information, including the #103 car, has indicated that they used the standard ratios - that is until now....
Last edited by Oddjob; 11-09-2005 at 11:30 AM.
11-09-2005, 11:22 AM
#74
Race Car
Originally Posted by Oddjob
The S2 R&P (3.875) is strong enough, but the production parts did not show up until MY89 - which means they would have been available on the assembly line early in '88. Possible that the Motorsports department was playing with and testing prototypes of the shorter/stronger R&P much earlier than that, but this would be complete speculation.
I believe things like this happen more often than people know about. My 2001 GTI should have been an engine code AWD or a 150 HP setup as the 2000 models are however I have a AWW which is the same mechanicals as 2002 AWP model tuned for 163hp. The 2002 AWP was then tuned for 180HP. IOW I believe that it may have been a dry run to make sure that the changes were going to satisfy VW's requirements.
It would be interesting to find out more on the drivetrain questions. Keep up the work guys!
Michael
11-09-2005, 11:29 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Oddjob
I believe you are thinking of a car owned and sold by Jim Newman. It was a Canadian Turbo Cup (with the typical Rothman's livery). I will try to find a picture of the car, and you can confirm if that is the same one you are referring to.