This is for all the Oil Nerds
09-19-2005, 01:53 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
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I think those guys are over the top just a little ....
I read through a couple threads, and it's amazing that they have that much to talk about with green castrol
I read through a couple threads, and it's amazing that they have that much to talk about with green castrol
09-19-2005, 02:09 AM
#17
here.. i went digging, this guy claims
"German Castrol is considered by so many of us, "the holy grail" of motor oils because it is very shear stable, pure POA stock synthetic that returns excellent UOAs with very low wear metals without the use of moly addatives. It has a detergency package that is on par with most HDEOs."
"German Castrol is considered by so many of us, "the holy grail" of motor oils because it is very shear stable, pure POA stock synthetic that returns excellent UOAs with very low wear metals without the use of moly addatives. It has a detergency package that is on par with most HDEOs."
09-19-2005, 03:28 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
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Hi,
yes, there are many formulation variances with Castrol (and others) as they become more Vehicle Maker specific
In durability field testing advanced formulation semi-synthetic oils in my heavy trucks for Castrol, I became an early user of the original German sourced Castrol SLX 0w-30 in 1996 in a variety of petrol engines. In its first formulation it was less than successful in some applications. After three formulation changes and subsequent blending in Singapore and Australia it was withdrawn from the Australian market in 2001(about). It was a sales flop!
1 - All Porsche Approved oils are either 0w-40 or 5w-40 viscosity (only one exception - Mobil 1 5w-50)
2 - "PAO" is Polyalphaolefin - a Group 4 "synthetic" basestock
3 - Many of Castrol's products are made from Group 3 "hydrocracked" basestocks. These excellent new technology basestocks (over the last three years) are cheaper than Group 4 and Group 5 (Esters) full synthetics. A Group 6 basestock exist too. Shell, Mobil and Caltex-Chevron-Havoline market excellent modern Group 3 formulations
Many perform at least as well as "full" synthetic Group 4 basestocks
Basestocks are made from only about five sources - Exxon-Mobil is the largest supplier. These end up in the "boutique" oils that you can pay lots of money for for no real benefit!
4 - The colour of new oil is usually from dyes. Shell Helix Ultra synthetic (Group 3) was a light purple
Castrol's 0w(or 5w)-30 viscosity oil of any designation is NOT Porsche Approved and Listed. All such oils from Castrol are either 0w-40 or 5w-40 viscosity
There are no "magic" oils no matter what the advertising may tell you. Porsche Approved and Listed oils from any Oil Company will perform about the same - be they Group 3, 4 or 5.
Oils that state that they "Meet" or are "Approved" for Porsche vehicles and are not formally "Listed" by Porsche have NOT been durability/quality tested by Porsche - I believe that this is VERY important
As a point of interest Castrol's 75w-90 GL5 synthetic gear oils and Transmax Z synthetic ATF are excellent in Porsche cars - they are probably the best around and at any price. I have run their 75w-90 GL5 gear oils at one million kilometer oil change intervals in my trucks with excellent results in seal, gear and bearing life!
Regards
yes, there are many formulation variances with Castrol (and others) as they become more Vehicle Maker specific
In durability field testing advanced formulation semi-synthetic oils in my heavy trucks for Castrol, I became an early user of the original German sourced Castrol SLX 0w-30 in 1996 in a variety of petrol engines. In its first formulation it was less than successful in some applications. After three formulation changes and subsequent blending in Singapore and Australia it was withdrawn from the Australian market in 2001(about). It was a sales flop!
1 - All Porsche Approved oils are either 0w-40 or 5w-40 viscosity (only one exception - Mobil 1 5w-50)
2 - "PAO" is Polyalphaolefin - a Group 4 "synthetic" basestock
3 - Many of Castrol's products are made from Group 3 "hydrocracked" basestocks. These excellent new technology basestocks (over the last three years) are cheaper than Group 4 and Group 5 (Esters) full synthetics. A Group 6 basestock exist too. Shell, Mobil and Caltex-Chevron-Havoline market excellent modern Group 3 formulations
Many perform at least as well as "full" synthetic Group 4 basestocks
Basestocks are made from only about five sources - Exxon-Mobil is the largest supplier. These end up in the "boutique" oils that you can pay lots of money for for no real benefit!
4 - The colour of new oil is usually from dyes. Shell Helix Ultra synthetic (Group 3) was a light purple
Castrol's 0w(or 5w)-30 viscosity oil of any designation is NOT Porsche Approved and Listed. All such oils from Castrol are either 0w-40 or 5w-40 viscosity
There are no "magic" oils no matter what the advertising may tell you. Porsche Approved and Listed oils from any Oil Company will perform about the same - be they Group 3, 4 or 5.
Oils that state that they "Meet" or are "Approved" for Porsche vehicles and are not formally "Listed" by Porsche have NOT been durability/quality tested by Porsche - I believe that this is VERY important
As a point of interest Castrol's 75w-90 GL5 synthetic gear oils and Transmax Z synthetic ATF are excellent in Porsche cars - they are probably the best around and at any price. I have run their 75w-90 GL5 gear oils at one million kilometer oil change intervals in my trucks with excellent results in seal, gear and bearing life!
Regards
Last edited by Doug Hillary; 09-19-2005 at 03:46 AM.
09-19-2005, 02:14 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Do a search on the subject...
Castrol misleads consumers that Syntec is a fully synthetic motor oil despite the fact that Syntec is no longer synthetic. The challenger alleged that after years of manufacturing Syntec with PAO, Castrol replaced the PAO, which had constituted nearly 70% of the volume of the product, with hydroprocessed mineral oil in approximately December 1997. As a result of an independent laboratory test conducted by Savant Inc., Mobil maintained that samples of Syntec purchased in June and December 1997 contained 93% and 80% PAO. Other samples of Syntec, one purchased in December 1997 and four purchased in 1998, contained no PAO, and instead contained 100% mineral oil.
Castrol misleads consumers that Syntec is a fully synthetic motor oil despite the fact that Syntec is no longer synthetic. The challenger alleged that after years of manufacturing Syntec with PAO, Castrol replaced the PAO, which had constituted nearly 70% of the volume of the product, with hydroprocessed mineral oil in approximately December 1997. As a result of an independent laboratory test conducted by Savant Inc., Mobil maintained that samples of Syntec purchased in June and December 1997 contained 93% and 80% PAO. Other samples of Syntec, one purchased in December 1997 and four purchased in 1998, contained no PAO, and instead contained 100% mineral oil.
09-19-2005, 02:27 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Also... (Information from outside sources)
"The oil industry has put base oils into five categories based on chemical composition, physical characteristics and type. The key differences being the amount of sulphur & saturates. Sulphur is a natural component of crude oil but is not desired. The lower the sulphur content, the better; saturates are a type of hydrocarbon, the more, the better; the viscosity index (VI), is an important measure of the resistance to thinning of the viscosity of the oil with increasing temperature. The higher the VI, the lesser the thinning, the better; and the type which helps differentiate mineral oils from synthetics in a somewhat disputable definition. For reference the industry categories are:
Base Oil Sulphur (%) Saturates (%) Viscosity Index
Group I >0.03 and/or <90 80 to 120
Group II <0.03 and >90 80 to 120
Group III <0.03 and >90 >120
Group IV All polyalphaolefins (PAO’s)
Group V All others not included in Groups I, II, III or IV
Group I: Mineral Oils. These have been around over 100 years and are made from the stuff that made Jed a millionaire. That is "Black Gold", "Texas Tea" in other words crude oil. The "light" components such as gasoline, kerosene and diesel fuel (Automotive Distillate) are removed from crude oil at the refinery. The "heavier" components which are left are sent to the Lube Refinery to make mineral base oils and asphalt. Commonly referred to as Conventional Refining, only three or four mineral base oils are made, light through heavy viscosity. These three or four base stocks are used in blending to make the hundreds of finished products on the market. This is efficient for refining, but can be a performance compromise for the engine oil formulator. Group I Mineral Oils are the cheapest and most commonly used today but at the bottom (or conversely the start) of the quality and performance scale. Even after refining they still contain natural compounds that can form gum, varnish, sludge and other deposits in an engine.
Group II & III: Category base oils. These are manufactured by what is referred to as Non-Conventional or Modern Refining. They are made from by-products of fuels and/or lubes refining such as residuals or wax so initially were considered Mineral Oils. However, some marketers nowadays claim they're synthetic. Suffice it to say that directionally, Group II & III base oils have much reduced sulphur content and increased saturates and VI so move up the quality and performance scale from Group I Mineral Oils. Their current limit is that only light to medium viscosity grades are available, their use is restricted to low viscosity engine oils and not what you want in your car. To meet SAE 20W-50 other base oils or additives are required. Another compromise for optimum performance. Some of the nasties are still there.
Group IV: PolyAlphaOlefins (PAO’s) are 100% pure saturates with zero sulphur and naturally very high VI’s. They are considered as containing the “perfect” oil molecule, the iso-paraffin (of the saturate family). No nasties! They are person-made and tailor-made from synthesis converting pure hydrocarbon ethylene gas to oil molecules covering all required viscosity grades. No compromise there. Very light to very heavy viscosity oils can be made from 100% PAO’s. The synthesis to manufacture PAO’s is costly so Group IV PAO’s synthetic base oils are more expensive than Group I, II or III base oils. PAO is at the top of the hydrocarbon lubrication ladder.
Group V: Others. Contains all other synthetics such as esters and alkylated aromatics. The most commonly used pure synthetic in automotive applications after PAO. Most are not hydrocarbons, usually very light in viscosity, but very similar, and in automotive engine oil applications must be compatible with all the other Groups. Many full synthetic engine oil formulations contain blends of PAO and esters and/or alkylated aromatics for optimum performance."
http://zo6vette.com/forums/showthread.php?p=688560
"Crude oil can also be super-refined to eliminate nearly all impurities. One method of super refining is called "Hydrocracking" and has been around since the 1930's. Hydrocracked base stock is called VHVI. The advantages to designing a motor oil with VHVI are the same as for PAO, with a notable addition: VHVI is way cheaper to make than PAO. Castrol "Syntec" is an example of a VHVI based oil."
http://www.auto-ware.com/autoware-bi...ames;read=2237
However to say a Group 3 "hydrocracked" basestock is better or the same as PAO is not true. It is mearly as close as you can get to PAO from a dino baised oil.
"The oil industry has put base oils into five categories based on chemical composition, physical characteristics and type. The key differences being the amount of sulphur & saturates. Sulphur is a natural component of crude oil but is not desired. The lower the sulphur content, the better; saturates are a type of hydrocarbon, the more, the better; the viscosity index (VI), is an important measure of the resistance to thinning of the viscosity of the oil with increasing temperature. The higher the VI, the lesser the thinning, the better; and the type which helps differentiate mineral oils from synthetics in a somewhat disputable definition. For reference the industry categories are:
Base Oil Sulphur (%) Saturates (%) Viscosity Index
Group I >0.03 and/or <90 80 to 120
Group II <0.03 and >90 80 to 120
Group III <0.03 and >90 >120
Group IV All polyalphaolefins (PAO’s)
Group V All others not included in Groups I, II, III or IV
Group I: Mineral Oils. These have been around over 100 years and are made from the stuff that made Jed a millionaire. That is "Black Gold", "Texas Tea" in other words crude oil. The "light" components such as gasoline, kerosene and diesel fuel (Automotive Distillate) are removed from crude oil at the refinery. The "heavier" components which are left are sent to the Lube Refinery to make mineral base oils and asphalt. Commonly referred to as Conventional Refining, only three or four mineral base oils are made, light through heavy viscosity. These three or four base stocks are used in blending to make the hundreds of finished products on the market. This is efficient for refining, but can be a performance compromise for the engine oil formulator. Group I Mineral Oils are the cheapest and most commonly used today but at the bottom (or conversely the start) of the quality and performance scale. Even after refining they still contain natural compounds that can form gum, varnish, sludge and other deposits in an engine.
Group II & III: Category base oils. These are manufactured by what is referred to as Non-Conventional or Modern Refining. They are made from by-products of fuels and/or lubes refining such as residuals or wax so initially were considered Mineral Oils. However, some marketers nowadays claim they're synthetic. Suffice it to say that directionally, Group II & III base oils have much reduced sulphur content and increased saturates and VI so move up the quality and performance scale from Group I Mineral Oils. Their current limit is that only light to medium viscosity grades are available, their use is restricted to low viscosity engine oils and not what you want in your car. To meet SAE 20W-50 other base oils or additives are required. Another compromise for optimum performance. Some of the nasties are still there.
Group IV: PolyAlphaOlefins (PAO’s) are 100% pure saturates with zero sulphur and naturally very high VI’s. They are considered as containing the “perfect” oil molecule, the iso-paraffin (of the saturate family). No nasties! They are person-made and tailor-made from synthesis converting pure hydrocarbon ethylene gas to oil molecules covering all required viscosity grades. No compromise there. Very light to very heavy viscosity oils can be made from 100% PAO’s. The synthesis to manufacture PAO’s is costly so Group IV PAO’s synthetic base oils are more expensive than Group I, II or III base oils. PAO is at the top of the hydrocarbon lubrication ladder.
Group V: Others. Contains all other synthetics such as esters and alkylated aromatics. The most commonly used pure synthetic in automotive applications after PAO. Most are not hydrocarbons, usually very light in viscosity, but very similar, and in automotive engine oil applications must be compatible with all the other Groups. Many full synthetic engine oil formulations contain blends of PAO and esters and/or alkylated aromatics for optimum performance."
http://zo6vette.com/forums/showthread.php?p=688560
"Crude oil can also be super-refined to eliminate nearly all impurities. One method of super refining is called "Hydrocracking" and has been around since the 1930's. Hydrocracked base stock is called VHVI. The advantages to designing a motor oil with VHVI are the same as for PAO, with a notable addition: VHVI is way cheaper to make than PAO. Castrol "Syntec" is an example of a VHVI based oil."
http://www.auto-ware.com/autoware-bi...ames;read=2237
However to say a Group 3 "hydrocracked" basestock is better or the same as PAO is not true. It is mearly as close as you can get to PAO from a dino baised oil.
09-19-2005, 04:43 PM
#22
That doesn't explain how you came to the conclusion that the green stuff is true PAO and the gold stuff is not. As Doug stated, the green is merely dye added for whatever reason. And as explained on the Bob is the Oil Guy forum, Bruce381 ran some lab tests on the two oils and they appear to be the same:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...1;t=000028;p=2
Also, from one of the links you post, which leads me to the comment - who cares if it is or isn't full syn. If you want to pay 3 or 4 bucks for a quart of oil no matter what type, more power to ya:
"A last note on additives. Many believe, (and the oil companies perpetuate the myth) that synthetic oil is "slipperier" than dino oil. But PAO or VHVI aren't any more slippery than regular oil. It is the ADDITIVE PACKAGE that determines that characteristic."
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...1;t=000028;p=2
Also, from one of the links you post, which leads me to the comment - who cares if it is or isn't full syn. If you want to pay 3 or 4 bucks for a quart of oil no matter what type, more power to ya:
"A last note on additives. Many believe, (and the oil companies perpetuate the myth) that synthetic oil is "slipperier" than dino oil. But PAO or VHVI aren't any more slippery than regular oil. It is the ADDITIVE PACKAGE that determines that characteristic."
09-19-2005, 05:07 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Manning
That doesn't explain how you came to the conclusion that the green stuff is true PAO and the gold stuff is not. As Doug stated, the green is merely dye added for whatever reason. And as explained on the Bob is the Oil Guy forum, Bruce381 ran some lab tests on the two oils and they appear to be the same:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...1;t=000028;p=2
Also, from one of the links you post, which leads me to the comment - who cares if it is or isn't full syn. If you want to pay 3 or 4 bucks for a quart of oil no matter what type, more power to ya:
"A last note on additives. Many believe, (and the oil companies perpetuate the myth) that synthetic oil is "slipperier" than dino oil. But PAO or VHVI aren't any more slippery than regular oil. It is the ADDITIVE PACKAGE that determines that characteristic."
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...1;t=000028;p=2
Also, from one of the links you post, which leads me to the comment - who cares if it is or isn't full syn. If you want to pay 3 or 4 bucks for a quart of oil no matter what type, more power to ya:
"A last note on additives. Many believe, (and the oil companies perpetuate the myth) that synthetic oil is "slipperier" than dino oil. But PAO or VHVI aren't any more slippery than regular oil. It is the ADDITIVE PACKAGE that determines that characteristic."
I actually found the same conclusion today when looking through many pages of information on many diffrent sites.
German formulation of Castrol (Green) vs Domestic (Gold)
..........Green.....Green.....Green.......Green... .....Gold
..........M04023..M04097..M04280...M05010.......M0 5028
P.........1076......1105......1123.......1222..... ......903
ZN.......1277......1187......1287.......1348...... .....1157
CA.......3401......3683......3431.......3428...... .....1941
MG.......222........218.......238.........229..... .......770
TBN......9.03.......8.47......8.81........9.03.... .......9.03
Also do you know what the diffrence of CA/MG is?
Ca turns into soft ash and remain suspended in the oil. Mg turnes into abrasive ash and formes hard deposits, which is why producers were turning to Ca instead of Mg for their long-OCI oils. So your Green Castrol is actually worse then "Gold" if you want to streach out your oil changes.
Green like Gold is not a PAO oil but is a Group III and uses Hydrocracking basestock.
Sorry for the misinformation as orginal information I had found said the green was a PAO and the Gold was not.
09-19-2005, 05:24 PM
#24
An interesting point comes out of this thread in that it was determined in the Castrol case that "hydrocracked" base was far enough removed from natural that they allow it to be considered "synthetic"
09-19-2005, 06:01 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
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Hi,
Fishey - have no doubt that Group 3 "semi-synthetic" oils perform as well if not better than some "full synthetics". This is the base level for a product to reach Porsche Approval by successfully passing all of their test protocols
Some of your data is actually a little dated, for instance in your description of the Groups and as I mentioned earlier there is now Group 6 for very advanced chemically based lubricants
Your comments on what amounts to Sulphated Ash levels etc (Ca/Mg) would take too much time to expand on. For our purposes it would only make this simple subject more complex. Group 3 Porsche Approved and Listed oils will perform very well in any Porsche engine
Castrol's adventure with synthetics started many decades ago - probably in Germany in the 1930s. Castrol "R" castor bean based racing oils are still used today - we raced vehicles in the 1950s and they were "the" standard then. I was involved in the early version of Castrol "R" 10w-60(now) synthetic in the late 1970s. It was caster based then - Group 5, but it was changed to Group 4 about 1982!
I field tested this oil in many engine brands types - both petrol and diesel - for hundreds of thousands of hours with excellent results. Some oil change intervals were made at 3000hrs (equiv. to 240000kms)
The development of advanced Group 3 semi-synthetic basestocks is in full flight and these products perform much better in some applications than Group 4 or Group 5. I cannot comment at this stage on Group 6 developments
Castrol already have Group 3 oils that live for five years or more of normal use in a variety of engine families
I use Mobil synthetic products except in some drivelines where some are on Castrol lubricants. I have also been a long term (20 years) user of Shell's Group 3 synthetic engine oils with excellent results
No oil of any Group, Brand or formulation is significantly better in reducing wear than another when both meet the same specifications - despite the hype!!
Regards
Fishey - have no doubt that Group 3 "semi-synthetic" oils perform as well if not better than some "full synthetics". This is the base level for a product to reach Porsche Approval by successfully passing all of their test protocols
Some of your data is actually a little dated, for instance in your description of the Groups and as I mentioned earlier there is now Group 6 for very advanced chemically based lubricants
Your comments on what amounts to Sulphated Ash levels etc (Ca/Mg) would take too much time to expand on. For our purposes it would only make this simple subject more complex. Group 3 Porsche Approved and Listed oils will perform very well in any Porsche engine
Castrol's adventure with synthetics started many decades ago - probably in Germany in the 1930s. Castrol "R" castor bean based racing oils are still used today - we raced vehicles in the 1950s and they were "the" standard then. I was involved in the early version of Castrol "R" 10w-60(now) synthetic in the late 1970s. It was caster based then - Group 5, but it was changed to Group 4 about 1982!
I field tested this oil in many engine brands types - both petrol and diesel - for hundreds of thousands of hours with excellent results. Some oil change intervals were made at 3000hrs (equiv. to 240000kms)
The development of advanced Group 3 semi-synthetic basestocks is in full flight and these products perform much better in some applications than Group 4 or Group 5. I cannot comment at this stage on Group 6 developments
Castrol already have Group 3 oils that live for five years or more of normal use in a variety of engine families
I use Mobil synthetic products except in some drivelines where some are on Castrol lubricants. I have also been a long term (20 years) user of Shell's Group 3 synthetic engine oils with excellent results
No oil of any Group, Brand or formulation is significantly better in reducing wear than another when both meet the same specifications - despite the hype!!
Regards
