tifosiman

You can mount S4 calipers on an early offset car without changing the offset.

TD in DC

Andy,

I still don't understand why you want an upgrade. Are your stock brakes strong enough to lock up? If not, have you done all required maintenance? If the answer to the first question is no and the second question is yes, then maybe you need an upgrade, but I understand that well-maintained stock setups are sufficient.

If they are strong enough to lock up, are they fading after repeated usage? If so, have you installed cooling ducts or experimented with different brake fluids/etc? If the answer to the third and fourth questions is yes, then maybe you need an upgrade, but I understand that well-maintained stock setups are fine for most applications.

So long as you can lock up your brakes and are not experiencing fade, then all a brake upgrade will do is add weight, unsprung weight at that, which will make your car less nimble. It certainly would not smash your brain anymore than you already have

If it is just for looks, caliper paint would be cheaper and it would not negatively affect performance.

Just my .02 cents.

TD

Oddjob

Im not disputting that the M030 spindles are stronger than the 86 and earlier, they are. Im just saying that the M030 spindles are not stronger than other 87+ spindles.

Yes, the caliper bolt pattern is different between various models, but I see no indication of a strength difference or improvement based on the hole location/orientation. I have never heard of a caliper braking off a steering knuckle.

But looking back, since the car in question (big red upgrade on Ebay) is an 86, the information that I offered regarding 87+ cars is really not pertinent. So my mistake.

Mongo

The 914 is a very formidable adversary on the track of other competitors. There's a guy with a 3 litre SC motor with Weber 40's that seems to be obliterating the 911 competition. Good choice there!

I have the Panorama magazine about brake upgrades in my car actually. The article appears to be based on the 911 crowd, however it still shows a very similar premise of what is discussed even on here regarding brake upgrades every now and then.

A brake upgrade for the street would be a plus, but added weight on the track. I can understand at autocrosses it would be useless considering how short the course is. But, how about bigger tracks; something like Willow Springs, Sears Point, VIR, Road America, just outta curiousity? Anyone with big brakes have experience there?

I don't think I'll ever track my car in anything more serious than an autocross after seeing some of the 944s that ran at Willow literally 'sand blasted' on the nose panels and hoods.

Mongo

Hey TD, my brakes appear to be functioning perfectly after having checked them out during my ATE blue swap and rotor replacement. I was just thinking about it after I saw that big red 944 NA. It would be cool, but I know that I have better places on my 944 to invest my money; timing belt and water pump at the moment.

I haven't really tried many setups with brakes, but am taking M758's suggestion on Hawk pads as soon as I come up for that service. The ATE blue works great and I've never boiled it over. I have to admit overall that I'm satisfied with my braking, but there's that little voice in my head that likes to ask the 'What If' question alot; we all get that don't we?

Back to smashing my brain on crunching numbers...

tifosiman

No I have not.

But you couldn't pay me enough bolt a big red caliper and rotors up to a 1986 N/A spindle and go drive it hard. No way, no how.

Your Willwood calipers probably aren't anywhere near presenting a problem for the N/A spindle, especially since you are able to use the same rotor.

M758

Andy,

At willow springs a 944 can almost run without brakes at all. Think about.. Avg speed in spec car is 90 mph and these poor things barely get to 120 out there... So.... what do we need brakes for?


Andy... you missed my point on the brake pads. Hawk blues are nice pads, but over kill for autocross. If you want great track performance are willing to scrafice all else. Get the blues. If are just autocrossing it get the KFP golds. In fact I have not autocrossed my 944 spec in a long time. The KFP's might even be better when cold and that is important in an autocross.

BTW...
Sand blasting on track cars is badge of honor.

Mongo

interesting point, sorry. Right now I'm running metal masters, but they do have a very slight fade...nothing to complain about.

M758

Andy,
I ran metal master for a while too. They were fine in autocrossing. However on day i melted them down after 2 -20 min session on one of our local "hard on brakes" tracks. After that I installed custom cooling ducts and kept driving on new set of metal masters. The cooling alone helped alot. Eventually I moved up after another year or so and learning to push the car even harder.

Techno Duck

Im curious, i know it depends on your particular regions rules, but do most PCA clubs throw you into modified if you use upgraded brakes on your car? The rules in the Metro-NY region are pretty flexible...i changed a ton of the stuff on my 944's suspension only to find i was still in the stock class!

Id like to think i will eventually buy Rennbays brake conversion kit, however im scared that will throw me into the class with the big boys!

ninefiveone

Asking the What If question is always a very worthwhile exercise.

So lets spend some time walking it through the paces and see where this ends up.

What if we could put big red brakes on a 944 n/a?

Would you get better stopping ability?
- No. 944 N/A's stop extremely well. They weigh about the same as a 944T but stop in practically the same distance despite having "smaller" brakes. Magazines like to say that the performance version of a car stopped in a shorter distance due to its "20 piston 18" rotor aluminum monobloc doohickey" brakes but usually you can attribute it to wider and stickier rubber.

Would you get better fade resistance?
- Theoretically yes but since a properly maintained and driven 944 n/a doesn't fade its brakes even in track usage there's no point. It's like adding an intercooler to an N/A. The intake charge doesn't get that hot, what's an intercooler going to do for you?

Well then why does a 944T have bigger brakes and a 944TS have even bigger brakes?
- They could easily get by with 944NA brakes at an autox or on the street. Just look at an E36 M3. Similar power to both cars and brakes that are just like a 944N/A. But at the track they will hit higher speeds due to their greater horsepower and have more energy to disappate in braking zones. With N/A brakes they would eventually put in more energy than the brakes could extract and fade them. Hence the bigger brakes to deal with greater energy being put into them. Note that Turbo brakes have a good amount of reserve even for a turbo. I'm putting down easily 80rwhp more than stock and with track pads, am very happy with the stock setup.

Will the car perform better at all?
- No. It'll stop the same as it always had although if you wanted to so repeated 100-0 stops for an hour you might see better fade resistance. The car will ride substantially worse since Big Red calipers are very heavy and the rotors even more so.

Will the car look better?
- If you like the look, then yes but it's a pretty ricey thing to do. And I'm someone who's really reluctant to throw that word around. I'd rather see N/A brakes painted red with a caliper sticker on them. At least performance isn't being made worse to make the car look nicer.

So how about S4 brakes?
- Well if N/A brakes are more than enough to begin with...

So is that why autox doesn't count brakes for many mod points?
- Well yes. Bigger brakes don't do much for you at autox because you're not generating any real speed. Which tells you something that if the upgrade you're considering isn't considered an upgrade by the sanctioning body you race with. Either it's not going to improve performance or you're a genius and found a loophole in their rules.

So why do any 944N/A guys upgrade brakes at all?
- If you track the car a lot there are some benefits. Pads and rotors will last longer as the bigger brakes shrug off the nominal heat being put into them. You can be a much sloppier driver without having to deal with brake fade. Turbo brakes are a whole lot easier to change pads on than N/A brakes. But notice that the time tested upgrade of choice here is 951 brakes, not S4 or Big Reds. Because while they're still heavier than N/A brakes, they're still a whole lot lighter than S4 or BR's. The new Wilwood kit from KLA is also an interesting option because 951 brakes are tough to find since N/A owners need to also buy the spindles and hubs as well.

Should I upgrade the rear brakes too if I do the fronts?
- Don't get me started on this urban myth...

Mongo

I wouldn't be surprised if you were thrown in the next class up with the 4-pistons Techno Duck. I know if I went with Wilwood 4-pistons I would be pushed into GP facing drivers with more than 2 years experience, heh, as if the drivers in GS class right now don't have that already.

Mongo

A lot of good points made today about the braking system on 8-valve 944s in this thread. Thanks to all of you and your thoughts on brake updates on the 944. It's just not worth putting the money into something that already has good braking as most have said on here.

I bet some of the new guys that join this board later on will find this thread most useful regarding any questions relating to the braking system of the 944 NA.

ljibis

Great points from ninefiveone - thanks for breaking it down.

My car's PO upgraded the brakes with slotted, cryo-treated rotors, braided lines, and (I'm told) Hawk HP PLUS pads. They are noisy when cold, but almost put the car on it's nose under heavy braking. I have been really impressed with how easy they are to modulate at the tires' limit of adhesion, as well. It's really easy to put them right at the borderline of lock-up.

For me, pedal feel and confidence is really the key component of a good, higher-performance street setup. It's amazing how much difference braided lines and good, new fluid make in that equation.

I'd argue that no BBK is rice as long as those true braking performance things are taken care of at the same time.