Camber Plates Group Buy - Guru Racing!
05-30-2005, 10:49 PM
#31
Race Director
The design has to do with particular applications. On many cars with inadequate room under the strut-tower for a useful 4-degree adjustment-range, they have to put the camber-plates on TOP of the strut towers, like this Nissan Sentra plate or an SN95 Mustang plate. However, this makes the plate carry ALL of the load from the weight of the car. So you use extra heavy-duty (and extra heavy) bolts and parts. In the case of the Mustang plates, the thin upper -piece isn't loaded symmetrically and it tends to bend. That's why those designs have to be upgraded to thicker and heavier parts.
However, the 944 has enough room under the strut-towers to fit all of the camber-plate parts underneath. As such, there's no tension or bending loads on the plates or bolts, just compresssion. So the bolts only have to big enough to clamp down and create friction to hold the pieces together; they never have to bear the weight of the car on them. In fact, once you have the plates installed, you can even remove all the bolts if you want and nothing changes all of the load is still carried by the strut tower . Not so on the Mustang where if the bolts came loose, the entire strut assembly goes through your hood and the car grinds its nose on the ground...
The price also reflects high-quality parts like grade-8 bolts with self-locking nuts and teflon-lined spherical bearings instead of heim-joints in other designs. As mentioned in the other thread, a high-quality camber-plate can't even be manufactured at cost for less than what I'm selling these for. In fact after Eyal gets his commission on these, I'll be making less than what it costs me to make them. I just need to get these things off the shelf to where they can be providing performance benefits to someone.
However, the 944 has enough room under the strut-towers to fit all of the camber-plate parts underneath. As such, there's no tension or bending loads on the plates or bolts, just compresssion. So the bolts only have to big enough to clamp down and create friction to hold the pieces together; they never have to bear the weight of the car on them. In fact, once you have the plates installed, you can even remove all the bolts if you want and nothing changes all of the load is still carried by the strut tower . Not so on the Mustang where if the bolts came loose, the entire strut assembly goes through your hood and the car grinds its nose on the ground...
The price also reflects high-quality parts like grade-8 bolts with self-locking nuts and teflon-lined spherical bearings instead of heim-joints in other designs. As mentioned in the other thread, a high-quality camber-plate can't even be manufactured at cost for less than what I'm selling these for. In fact after Eyal gets his commission on these, I'll be making less than what it costs me to make them. I just need to get these things off the shelf to where they can be providing performance benefits to someone.
Last edited by Danno; 05-30-2005 at 11:05 PM.
05-31-2005, 12:03 AM
#32
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Danno
Some more features I left out earlier:
- fits M030 Koni-adjustable struts
So do GC plates
- 4 degree adjustment ranges allows for maximum performance (-0.5 for street use, -4.5 degrees for autocross/track).
Show me a track guy who uses -4.5
"Anyone want to elaborate on the design differences between a camber plate with a thrust bearing and one without? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Do the GC and RE plates have a thrust bearing?"
There are two separate factors to look at that's confused together when you hear "thrust bearing". The first consideration, which is what lead to the development of a thrust-bearing to begin with, is to allow for the rotation of the spring when you turn the wheel. The early camber-plates don't use an upper-spring perch and just rests the spring on the bottom of the plate. What ends up happening is when you turn the steering-wheel, the spring stays stationary on top, but spins on the bottom with the strut. This causes a resistance in the steering as you unwind the spring on left-hand turns and tighten up the spring in the other. On some cars with these kinds of camber-plate, you can't turn the steering more than 1 full turn in either direction. So the solution is a thrust-bearing that allows for rotation of the spring. Ground-Control has a nice set-up with a 2.5" diameter teflon-bearing that sits under the spring on the lower adjustable perch and allows the strut to spin under a stationary spring. I would like to see needle-bearings for this application.
The Ground Control is a needle bearing, as their description accurately says and the pic I've taken shows
The second factor that people mistakenly assume is the function of the thrust-bearing is to take the weight of the car off the spherical bearing. This would be case if you insert a bearing between the top of the spring and the bottom of the camber-plate.
As GC has done.
This would then allow the spring to rotate when you turn the wheel and spin the strut. However, placing the spring on the plate itself (or through an upper-perch that butts up against the bottom of the plate) with or without a thrust bearing is not a good idea due to changes in geometry of the suspension when the A-arm compressess and extends. The axis of the strut does not remain at a constant 90-degree to the bottom of the camber-plate. What happens when the suspension goes up and down is you end up with a +/- 2-degree lateral movement of the strut. This will then bow the spring in and out because the outside and inside edges will be compressed different amounts. This bowing of the spring will then put side loads on the strut-rod, increasing stiction on the seal and causing poor-performance. Not to mention accelerated wear and leaking.
There is no lateral movement of the strut top as it pivots around the anchored spherical at the top. Angular change due to lateral movement of the strut bottom results in a movement at the top of approx. 0.7mm, which is taken up by the domed thrust face (full contact radius for very low friction) between the GC seat and plate. There is no "bowing of the spring" and no "side loads...causing stiction...poor-performance...accelerated wear and leaking."
Funny that you mention stiction, a spherical bearing loaded with a 50lb side force and a spherical bearing loaded with a 700lb axial force plus a 50lb side force...guess which has more stiction?
The solution to the bowing spring is to use an upper-spring perch that pivots in and out with the strut and keeping the spring's motion in-line on-axis with the strut-rod. This is what Porsche did in the stock configuration with the stock upper strut mount. They used a spherical bearing there to provide for rotation of the upper spring-perch as well as for lateral rocking. This is the same design in the GURU plates as well.
One reason I upgrade my car is to get better engineered parts than stock - why pay more for the same as stock?
"I'm not sure about the Racer's Edge plates."
The Racer's Edge plates are of the exact same design as the stock and GURU plates at for an extra $150 (they are also the only ones to not raise or lower the car, thus usable with stock struts and springs). All of the loads go through the spherical bearing like in the stock plates. It is simply not possible to separate the load-bearing component of the spring from the sperical bearing without introducing a bowing-effect due to changes in geometry.
It is possible with good design and has been done by Ground Control. They've separated the load component and the spherical and provided a domed ball joint pivot so there is no bowing effect.
It's not done in the stock configuration and not done in any aftermarket 944 camber-plate.
Again, stock configuration is irrelevant, if I wanted stock configuration I'd buy stock parts. If I'm buying aftermarket, my money goes to the best engineered part. And it IS done in at least one aftermarket 944 camber plate.
On other cars with double-wishbone type suspension that keep the strut fairly perpendicular to the camber-plate through out the suspension's travel, then yes, you can rest the spring on the plate with a thrust-bearing in between, but that's not possible with the 944's suspension geometry. The thrust-bearings on certain GC plates that rests the spring on the plate itself, like on the E30 models, typically wear out in less than 2-years due to the uneven rocking loads from the bowing springs.
It's a thrust bearing taking the load of the corner of the car - around 700lb with peak shock loads far doubling that. If a purpose-designed needle bearing is worn out in 2 years, how long is a spherical bearing going to last, especially when the loads are applied in the direction the spherical is at its weakest? Far less than 2 years.
"Is it possible to adjust camber settings without jacking up the car?"
No, due to the weight of the car, the sliding plate on the bottom will be pressed pretty tightly against the plate and no adjustment is possible, even with the bolts fully loosened. Simple to adjust by jacking up the car so the wheels are off the ground, loosen and adjust the plates, tighten, then lower the car. Takes about 5-10 minutes to adjust.
- fits M030 Koni-adjustable struts
So do GC plates
- 4 degree adjustment ranges allows for maximum performance (-0.5 for street use, -4.5 degrees for autocross/track).
Show me a track guy who uses -4.5
"Anyone want to elaborate on the design differences between a camber plate with a thrust bearing and one without? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Do the GC and RE plates have a thrust bearing?"
There are two separate factors to look at that's confused together when you hear "thrust bearing". The first consideration, which is what lead to the development of a thrust-bearing to begin with, is to allow for the rotation of the spring when you turn the wheel. The early camber-plates don't use an upper-spring perch and just rests the spring on the bottom of the plate. What ends up happening is when you turn the steering-wheel, the spring stays stationary on top, but spins on the bottom with the strut. This causes a resistance in the steering as you unwind the spring on left-hand turns and tighten up the spring in the other. On some cars with these kinds of camber-plate, you can't turn the steering more than 1 full turn in either direction. So the solution is a thrust-bearing that allows for rotation of the spring. Ground-Control has a nice set-up with a 2.5" diameter teflon-bearing that sits under the spring on the lower adjustable perch and allows the strut to spin under a stationary spring. I would like to see needle-bearings for this application.
The Ground Control is a needle bearing, as their description accurately says and the pic I've taken shows
The second factor that people mistakenly assume is the function of the thrust-bearing is to take the weight of the car off the spherical bearing. This would be case if you insert a bearing between the top of the spring and the bottom of the camber-plate.
As GC has done.
This would then allow the spring to rotate when you turn the wheel and spin the strut. However, placing the spring on the plate itself (or through an upper-perch that butts up against the bottom of the plate) with or without a thrust bearing is not a good idea due to changes in geometry of the suspension when the A-arm compressess and extends. The axis of the strut does not remain at a constant 90-degree to the bottom of the camber-plate. What happens when the suspension goes up and down is you end up with a +/- 2-degree lateral movement of the strut. This will then bow the spring in and out because the outside and inside edges will be compressed different amounts. This bowing of the spring will then put side loads on the strut-rod, increasing stiction on the seal and causing poor-performance. Not to mention accelerated wear and leaking.
There is no lateral movement of the strut top as it pivots around the anchored spherical at the top. Angular change due to lateral movement of the strut bottom results in a movement at the top of approx. 0.7mm, which is taken up by the domed thrust face (full contact radius for very low friction) between the GC seat and plate. There is no "bowing of the spring" and no "side loads...causing stiction...poor-performance...accelerated wear and leaking."
Funny that you mention stiction, a spherical bearing loaded with a 50lb side force and a spherical bearing loaded with a 700lb axial force plus a 50lb side force...guess which has more stiction?
The solution to the bowing spring is to use an upper-spring perch that pivots in and out with the strut and keeping the spring's motion in-line on-axis with the strut-rod. This is what Porsche did in the stock configuration with the stock upper strut mount. They used a spherical bearing there to provide for rotation of the upper spring-perch as well as for lateral rocking. This is the same design in the GURU plates as well.
One reason I upgrade my car is to get better engineered parts than stock - why pay more for the same as stock?
"I'm not sure about the Racer's Edge plates."
The Racer's Edge plates are of the exact same design as the stock and GURU plates at for an extra $150 (they are also the only ones to not raise or lower the car, thus usable with stock struts and springs). All of the loads go through the spherical bearing like in the stock plates. It is simply not possible to separate the load-bearing component of the spring from the sperical bearing without introducing a bowing-effect due to changes in geometry.
It is possible with good design and has been done by Ground Control. They've separated the load component and the spherical and provided a domed ball joint pivot so there is no bowing effect.
It's not done in the stock configuration and not done in any aftermarket 944 camber-plate.
Again, stock configuration is irrelevant, if I wanted stock configuration I'd buy stock parts. If I'm buying aftermarket, my money goes to the best engineered part. And it IS done in at least one aftermarket 944 camber plate.
On other cars with double-wishbone type suspension that keep the strut fairly perpendicular to the camber-plate through out the suspension's travel, then yes, you can rest the spring on the plate with a thrust-bearing in between, but that's not possible with the 944's suspension geometry. The thrust-bearings on certain GC plates that rests the spring on the plate itself, like on the E30 models, typically wear out in less than 2-years due to the uneven rocking loads from the bowing springs.
It's a thrust bearing taking the load of the corner of the car - around 700lb with peak shock loads far doubling that. If a purpose-designed needle bearing is worn out in 2 years, how long is a spherical bearing going to last, especially when the loads are applied in the direction the spherical is at its weakest? Far less than 2 years.
"Is it possible to adjust camber settings without jacking up the car?"
No, due to the weight of the car, the sliding plate on the bottom will be pressed pretty tightly against the plate and no adjustment is possible, even with the bolts fully loosened. Simple to adjust by jacking up the car so the wheels are off the ground, loosen and adjust the plates, tighten, then lower the car. Takes about 5-10 minutes to adjust.
Originally Posted by Ground Control web site
Instead, the weight of the car is supported by a completely separate articulating needle bearing
Sam
05-31-2005, 01:40 AM
#33
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Elk Gove, CA
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Danno, the SN95 Mustang plate is exactly what I'm referring to. I have Steeda, Billet 7075 Al plates w/ teflon lined bearings, they are a 4 bolt design that allows the use of coil overs (stock Mustang suspension has inboard springs, so there is no weight on the strut itself)
Originally Posted by Steeda website
Steeda¹s New Aluminum 4-Bolt Caster Camber Plates are so advanced, they have earned US Patent # D494894!
NOTE: This Part Available for 1994 - 2004 Mustang ONLY!
Strength & Durability:
* 4 bolts spread the load across the entire strut tower.
* Billet 7075 aircraft alloy aluminum top plate: Twice as strong as 6061 aluminum used by other brands. 7075 Aluminum is actually stronger than mild steel.
* One-piece billet steel bearing plate. Not 2 pieces welded together like conventional plates.
* 15% thicker bearing plate than conventional designs.
* 18% thicker top plate than other aluminum plates.
* Teflon lined stainless steel bearing made in the USA.
Performance:
* Largest uninterrupted adjustment range available. No need to disassemble
the plates to switch between road racing and street settings.
* Truly independent adjustment of caster and camber.
Adjust camber without disturbing caster settings, and vice versa.
* Strut height adjustable from 0.6" above to 0.3" below stock.
* 2.6 lbs (40%) lighter per pair than competing 4-bolt plates.
* Lifetime warranty.
NOTE: This Part Available for 1994 - 2004 Mustang ONLY!
Strength & Durability:
* 4 bolts spread the load across the entire strut tower.
* Billet 7075 aircraft alloy aluminum top plate: Twice as strong as 6061 aluminum used by other brands. 7075 Aluminum is actually stronger than mild steel.
* One-piece billet steel bearing plate. Not 2 pieces welded together like conventional plates.
* 15% thicker bearing plate than conventional designs.
* 18% thicker top plate than other aluminum plates.
* Teflon lined stainless steel bearing made in the USA.
Performance:
* Largest uninterrupted adjustment range available. No need to disassemble
the plates to switch between road racing and street settings.
* Truly independent adjustment of caster and camber.
Adjust camber without disturbing caster settings, and vice versa.
* Strut height adjustable from 0.6" above to 0.3" below stock.
* 2.6 lbs (40%) lighter per pair than competing 4-bolt plates.
* Lifetime warranty.
