Camber Plates Group Buy - Guru Racing!
05-02-2005, 07:10 PM
#16
Race Director
The spherical bearing can be replaced with off-the-shelf units from TrueChoice if it wears out.
There's a collar that fits under the bearing and meets up with the stock upper-perch or aftermarket coilover perch. The springs do not sit on the bottom of the camber-plate because that would cause a bending side-load on the strut. So it is all held together by the upper-perch and pivots along with the strut.
There's a collar that fits under the bearing and meets up with the stock upper-perch or aftermarket coilover perch. The springs do not sit on the bottom of the camber-plate because that would cause a bending side-load on the strut. So it is all held together by the upper-perch and pivots along with the strut.
05-03-2005, 01:55 PM
#24
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Anyone want to elaborate on the design differences between a camber plate with a thrust bearing and one without? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Do the GC and RE plates have a thrust bearing?
05-03-2005, 04:59 PM
#25
I know that on the Ground Control plates the upper spring perch butts up against a piece of metal that rests on the back (bottom) of the adjusting plate so the spherical bearing does not carry any load. I'm not sure about the Racer's Edge plates.
05-30-2005, 09:58 PM
#29
Race Director
Some more features I left out earlier:
- fits M030 Koni-adjustable struts
- 4 degree adjustment ranges allows for maximum performance (-0.5 for street use, -4.5 degrees for autocross/track).
"Anyone want to elaborate on the design differences between a camber plate with a thrust bearing and one without? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Do the GC and RE plates have a thrust bearing?"
There are two separate factors to look at that's confused together when you hear "thrust bearing". The first consideration, which is what lead to the development of a thrust-bearing to begin with, is to allow for the rotation of the spring when you turn the wheel. The early camber-plates don't use an upper-spring perch and just rests the spring on the bottom of the plate. What ends up happening is when you turn the steering-wheel, the spring stays stationary on top, but spins on the bottom with the strut. This causes a resistance in the steering as you unwind the spring on left-hand turns and tighten up the spring in the other. On some cars with these kinds of camber-plate, you can't turn the steering more than 1 full turn in either direction. So the solution is a thrust-bearing that allows for rotation of the spring. Ground-Control has a nice set-up with a 2.5" diameter teflon-bearing that sits under the spring on the lower adjustable perch and allows the strut to spin under a stationary spring. I would like to see needle-bearings for this application.
The second factor that people mistakenly assume is the function of the thrust-bearing is to take the weight of the car off the spherical bearing. This would be case if you insert a bearing between the top of the spring and the bottom of the camber-plate. This would then allow the spring to rotate when you turn the wheel and spin the strut. However, placing the spring on the plate itself (or through an upper-perch that butts up against the bottom of the plate) with or without a thrust bearing is not a good idea due to changes in geometry of the suspension when the A-arm compressess and extends. The axis of the strut does not remain at a constant 90-degree to the bottom of the camber-plate. What happens when the suspension goes up and down is you end up with a +/- 2-degree lateral movement of the strut. This will then bow the spring in and out because the outside and inside edges will be compressed different amounts. This bowing of the spring will then put side loads on the strut-rod, increasing stiction on the seal and causing poor-performance. Not to mention accelerated wear and leaking.
The solution to the bowing spring is to use an upper-spring perch that pivots in and out with the strut and keeping the spring's motion in-line on-axis with the strut-rod. This is what Porsche did in the stock configuration with the stock upper strut mount. They used a spherical bearing there to provide for rotation of the upper spring-perch as well as for lateral rocking. This is the same design in the GURU plates as well.
"I'm not sure about the Racer's Edge plates."
The Racer's Edge plates are of the exact same design as the stock and GURU plates for an extra $150 (they are also the only other ones to not raise or lower the car, thus usable with stock struts and springs). All of the loads go through the spherical bearing like in the stock plates. It is simply not possible to separate the load-bearing component of the spring from the sperical bearing without introducing a bowing-effect due to changes in geometry. It's not done in the stock configuration and not done in any aftermarket 944 camber-plate. On other cars with double-wishbone type suspension that keep the strut fairly perpendicular to the camber-plate through out the suspension's travel, then yes, you can rest the spring on the plate with a thrust-bearing in between, but that's not possible with the 944's suspension geometry. The thrust-bearings on certain GC plates that rests the spring on the plate itself, like on the E30 models, typically wear out in less than 2-years due to the uneven rocking loads from the bowing springs.
"Is it possible to adjust camber settings without jacking up the car?"
No, due to the weight of the car, the sliding plate on the bottom will be pressed pretty tightly against the plate and no adjustment is possible, even with the bolts fully loosened. Simple to adjust by jacking up the car so the wheels are off the ground, loosen and adjust the plates, tighten, then lower the car. Takes about 5-10 minutes to adjust.
- fits M030 Koni-adjustable struts
- 4 degree adjustment ranges allows for maximum performance (-0.5 for street use, -4.5 degrees for autocross/track).
"Anyone want to elaborate on the design differences between a camber plate with a thrust bearing and one without? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Do the GC and RE plates have a thrust bearing?"
There are two separate factors to look at that's confused together when you hear "thrust bearing". The first consideration, which is what lead to the development of a thrust-bearing to begin with, is to allow for the rotation of the spring when you turn the wheel. The early camber-plates don't use an upper-spring perch and just rests the spring on the bottom of the plate. What ends up happening is when you turn the steering-wheel, the spring stays stationary on top, but spins on the bottom with the strut. This causes a resistance in the steering as you unwind the spring on left-hand turns and tighten up the spring in the other. On some cars with these kinds of camber-plate, you can't turn the steering more than 1 full turn in either direction. So the solution is a thrust-bearing that allows for rotation of the spring. Ground-Control has a nice set-up with a 2.5" diameter teflon-bearing that sits under the spring on the lower adjustable perch and allows the strut to spin under a stationary spring. I would like to see needle-bearings for this application.
The second factor that people mistakenly assume is the function of the thrust-bearing is to take the weight of the car off the spherical bearing. This would be case if you insert a bearing between the top of the spring and the bottom of the camber-plate. This would then allow the spring to rotate when you turn the wheel and spin the strut. However, placing the spring on the plate itself (or through an upper-perch that butts up against the bottom of the plate) with or without a thrust bearing is not a good idea due to changes in geometry of the suspension when the A-arm compressess and extends. The axis of the strut does not remain at a constant 90-degree to the bottom of the camber-plate. What happens when the suspension goes up and down is you end up with a +/- 2-degree lateral movement of the strut. This will then bow the spring in and out because the outside and inside edges will be compressed different amounts. This bowing of the spring will then put side loads on the strut-rod, increasing stiction on the seal and causing poor-performance. Not to mention accelerated wear and leaking.
The solution to the bowing spring is to use an upper-spring perch that pivots in and out with the strut and keeping the spring's motion in-line on-axis with the strut-rod. This is what Porsche did in the stock configuration with the stock upper strut mount. They used a spherical bearing there to provide for rotation of the upper spring-perch as well as for lateral rocking. This is the same design in the GURU plates as well.
"I'm not sure about the Racer's Edge plates."
The Racer's Edge plates are of the exact same design as the stock and GURU plates for an extra $150 (they are also the only other ones to not raise or lower the car, thus usable with stock struts and springs). All of the loads go through the spherical bearing like in the stock plates. It is simply not possible to separate the load-bearing component of the spring from the sperical bearing without introducing a bowing-effect due to changes in geometry. It's not done in the stock configuration and not done in any aftermarket 944 camber-plate. On other cars with double-wishbone type suspension that keep the strut fairly perpendicular to the camber-plate through out the suspension's travel, then yes, you can rest the spring on the plate with a thrust-bearing in between, but that's not possible with the 944's suspension geometry. The thrust-bearings on certain GC plates that rests the spring on the plate itself, like on the E30 models, typically wear out in less than 2-years due to the uneven rocking loads from the bowing springs.
"Is it possible to adjust camber settings without jacking up the car?"
No, due to the weight of the car, the sliding plate on the bottom will be pressed pretty tightly against the plate and no adjustment is possible, even with the bolts fully loosened. Simple to adjust by jacking up the car so the wheels are off the ground, loosen and adjust the plates, tighten, then lower the car. Takes about 5-10 minutes to adjust.
Last edited by Danno; 05-30-2005 at 11:20 PM.
05-30-2005, 10:18 PM
#30
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I'm interested, but am very curious about the sale price. The CC plates I have for a different car are of a heavier duty construction, are more adjustable, fit many struts, and cost about $150 less. am I missing something that makes these ones worth that much more, or is it just the purple annodizing and the porsche application?