is my clutch going out?
04-10-2005, 04:04 PM
#1
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is my clutch going out?
Last week the clutch pedal started to "stick."
You press it in and then it only comes back up half way.
I can pull it back up the rest of the way with my toe and its like it suddenly releases all the way back up with a "thud."
Is this my clutch going out?
How much for a 944na clutch?
You press it in and then it only comes back up half way.
I can pull it back up the rest of the way with my toe and its like it suddenly releases all the way back up with a "thud."
Is this my clutch going out?
How much for a 944na clutch?
04-10-2005, 04:25 PM
#2
I suspect you have a leak of brake fluid somewhere in the hydraulic clutch system.
Most likely candidate is the clutch slave cylinder, which bolts into the bellhousing.
Secondary candidates are the hard line that feeds the slave cylinder, or the clutch master cylinder.
This kind of failure will leave you stuck somewhere. The pedal will go all the way to the floor and stay there.
Most likely candidate is the clutch slave cylinder, which bolts into the bellhousing.
Secondary candidates are the hard line that feeds the slave cylinder, or the clutch master cylinder.
This kind of failure will leave you stuck somewhere. The pedal will go all the way to the floor and stay there.
04-10-2005, 04:31 PM
#3
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like above, it is likely a problem with your clutch hydrolics. Much cheaper than a clutch itself. The slave costs around 50$ if you shop around, I just did one and it was really easy, have to remove the starter too. The master cylinder isn't too expensive either.
04-10-2005, 04:42 PM
#4
Nordschleife Master
Doubt it. Check fluid level and see how far down you are.
While the clutch may in fact be on its last legs, that isn't the cause of your current problem. Probably the slave or master going, you are leaking hydraulic fluid and air may be introduced via sucking the reservoir dry. The snap back when you pull with your toe is the spring attached to the clutch pedal finally getting some mechanical advantage to pull it back to top. You are not totally shot on the cylinders as when that happens the pedal stays on the floor board unless you pull it back up. Not half way back up. But give it a couple weeks and you will be stuck on the floor.
Common wisdom is to replace both the master and slave at the same time. Theory is if seals on one fail the other isn't far behind. I don't really agree with that as the slave fails more often in my experience, but what the hey, may as well do both and be done with it. Both can be had for under $150 total. Better read up on how to bleed once you get things back together, search function is your new best friend. It is a bitch if you lose all the fluid in the system.
You don't want to know how much for parts and labor for a new clutch. If you take it to a shop start thinking well north of two grand.
While the clutch may in fact be on its last legs, that isn't the cause of your current problem. Probably the slave or master going, you are leaking hydraulic fluid and air may be introduced via sucking the reservoir dry. The snap back when you pull with your toe is the spring attached to the clutch pedal finally getting some mechanical advantage to pull it back to top. You are not totally shot on the cylinders as when that happens the pedal stays on the floor board unless you pull it back up. Not half way back up. But give it a couple weeks and you will be stuck on the floor.
Common wisdom is to replace both the master and slave at the same time. Theory is if seals on one fail the other isn't far behind. I don't really agree with that as the slave fails more often in my experience, but what the hey, may as well do both and be done with it. Both can be had for under $150 total. Better read up on how to bleed once you get things back together, search function is your new best friend. It is a bitch if you lose all the fluid in the system.
You don't want to know how much for parts and labor for a new clutch. If you take it to a shop start thinking well north of two grand.
04-10-2005, 06:45 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Yes it does, all one system with shared reservoir. My '88 NA had the same problem for a whole year (master and slave had been replaced by previous owner) until I learned how to bleed it properly. Never had a problem with the clutch pedal after that until the car ate it's second clutch. First one lasted 90k miles, second one about 75k miles.
There's even more hope... just did the clutch on my 968, original clutch failed finally at about 136k miles.
Bleed it right and see if the issue goes away. Good right ups via search on brake/clutch bleeding.
There's even more hope... just did the clutch on my 968, original clutch failed finally at about 136k miles.
Bleed it right and see if the issue goes away. Good right ups via search on brake/clutch bleeding.
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04-10-2005, 10:12 PM
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Well that explains it. I recently put on ss brake lines I never bleed it after except for pumping the brake pedal.
So if I hook up a power bleeder to the brake resevior it might fix this problem?
So if I hook up a power bleeder to the brake resevior it might fix this problem?
Originally Posted by Dave Swanson
Yes it does, all one system with shared reservoir. My '88 NA had the same problem for a whole year (master and slave had been replaced by previous owner) until I learned how to bleed it properly. Never had a problem with the clutch pedal after that until the car ate it's second clutch. First one lasted 90k miles, second one about 75k miles.
There's even more hope... just did the clutch on my 968, original clutch failed finally at about 136k miles.
Bleed it right and see if the issue goes away. Good right ups via search on brake/clutch bleeding.
There's even more hope... just did the clutch on my 968, original clutch failed finally at about 136k miles.
Bleed it right and see if the issue goes away. Good right ups via search on brake/clutch bleeding.
04-11-2005, 12:45 AM
#9
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Yup. Mine was a bleeding problem only, never had a hydraulic issue with that car in 60k+ miles.
Do search the archives on brake bleeding or clutch bleeding and you'll see the right-ups on the process, some of them mine, but don't let that dissuade you
The Motive bleeder is the hot set-up. Use all caution (disconnect negative battery terminal, goggles, etc.), but it's really quite straight forward. Other folks swear by this "you have to raise the rear of the car" thing, but I never have, don't do it now, and probably never will. No issues thus far in the process and I bleed brakes/clutch about 5-10 times per year on my car.
The pedal should return and behave. If not, then you may have a hydraulic issue. All of the above assumes you don't have any brake fluid leaking out somewhere, which I believe to be the case.
Do search the archives on brake bleeding or clutch bleeding and you'll see the right-ups on the process, some of them mine, but don't let that dissuade you
The Motive bleeder is the hot set-up. Use all caution (disconnect negative battery terminal, goggles, etc.), but it's really quite straight forward. Other folks swear by this "you have to raise the rear of the car" thing, but I never have, don't do it now, and probably never will. No issues thus far in the process and I bleed brakes/clutch about 5-10 times per year on my car.
The pedal should return and behave. If not, then you may have a hydraulic issue. All of the above assumes you don't have any brake fluid leaking out somewhere, which I believe to be the case.
04-11-2005, 12:54 AM
#10
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FWIW, here is my recommendation on bleeding the brakes. My son has been able to do it since he was ten years old with this method. It took me to mess it up and suck air into the clutch one time (let the reservoir get a bit too low).
1) Get a Motive Power Bleeder (no commercial interest, just the best fool-proof device for the job).
2) Get a pair of suitable ramps (I use the black plastic Rhino Ramps)
3) Fashion a drain bottle out of a one-liter clear pop bottle (drill hole for tube in cap, remove label)
4) Grab a one-liter bottle of Ate Blue (my choice) or other top-quality brake fluid
5) Place ramps in front of car, edge of garage leading out onto apron is perfect for me as it provides a very slight sloped surface for the ramps and leaves the ramped car more level (driving up onto them is a two-person job unless you use mirrors, eventually no help needed) E-brake on and leave in gear
6) Fill Bleeder with that liter of fluid, attach firmly to reservoir and pump up to 10-12 psi (may bleed slow, but won't blow up your reservoir this way)
7) As described, furthest caliper first, inner then outer, then check pressure and pump back up before moving on to next caliper (I can get the rears from under the car and through the wheel with my car ramped - nice)
8) You have to kind of visually meter the amount you remove, targeting about a fifth of the bottle for each caliper (combined inner and outer = one fifth liter) because... You're going to be REALLY smart and bleed the clutch while you are at it (disconnect negative battery terminal, then find the clutch slave - think it's a 7mm valve versus the 11mm on the calipers) This is where you will pull the final fifth out of the system
9) De-pressurize and remove the Bleeder from the reservoir (you may have to actually remove a bit of excess fluid from the reservoir to hit the Max mark - a big syringe like the ones they give you to dispense liquid medication to kids and pets is perfect for this - paper towels, used to "wick" some fluid out will work in a pinch)
10) Wander back around the car with favorite beverage in hand and think really hard "Did I miss anything, leave any tools, spill any fluid, etc.?"
11) Reconnect negative battery terminal, apply brakes a couple of times, operate clutch a couple of times... drive her on off the ramps.
Only issues I have ever had are these:
- Finding old cruddy bleeder valves (you can quickly hot-swap new ones with the bleeder on if needed)
- Running out of fluid in the Bleeder, drop in reservoir level, such air into clutch (dumb mistake, just didn't watch it closely enough)
- Finding hot starter contacts with that little 7mm wrench and lighting up the whole area with a nice spark (hence, the "disconnect negative terminal" comment)
- Spilling fluid (most times I do not lose a single drop now)
I think I've captured it, feel free to ping me directly if any questions. I bleed the brakes about 5-10 times per year with track season and all, so I need it to be a 30-minute excercise.
Oh, almost forgot... Do wear safety glasses or goggles. When that little drain hose pops off the caliper, it will invariably fling fluid at your face sooner or later.
Best of luck!
1) Get a Motive Power Bleeder (no commercial interest, just the best fool-proof device for the job).
2) Get a pair of suitable ramps (I use the black plastic Rhino Ramps)
3) Fashion a drain bottle out of a one-liter clear pop bottle (drill hole for tube in cap, remove label)
4) Grab a one-liter bottle of Ate Blue (my choice) or other top-quality brake fluid
5) Place ramps in front of car, edge of garage leading out onto apron is perfect for me as it provides a very slight sloped surface for the ramps and leaves the ramped car more level (driving up onto them is a two-person job unless you use mirrors, eventually no help needed) E-brake on and leave in gear
6) Fill Bleeder with that liter of fluid, attach firmly to reservoir and pump up to 10-12 psi (may bleed slow, but won't blow up your reservoir this way)
7) As described, furthest caliper first, inner then outer, then check pressure and pump back up before moving on to next caliper (I can get the rears from under the car and through the wheel with my car ramped - nice)
8) You have to kind of visually meter the amount you remove, targeting about a fifth of the bottle for each caliper (combined inner and outer = one fifth liter) because... You're going to be REALLY smart and bleed the clutch while you are at it (disconnect negative battery terminal, then find the clutch slave - think it's a 7mm valve versus the 11mm on the calipers) This is where you will pull the final fifth out of the system
9) De-pressurize and remove the Bleeder from the reservoir (you may have to actually remove a bit of excess fluid from the reservoir to hit the Max mark - a big syringe like the ones they give you to dispense liquid medication to kids and pets is perfect for this - paper towels, used to "wick" some fluid out will work in a pinch)
10) Wander back around the car with favorite beverage in hand and think really hard "Did I miss anything, leave any tools, spill any fluid, etc.?"
11) Reconnect negative battery terminal, apply brakes a couple of times, operate clutch a couple of times... drive her on off the ramps.
Only issues I have ever had are these:
- Finding old cruddy bleeder valves (you can quickly hot-swap new ones with the bleeder on if needed)
- Running out of fluid in the Bleeder, drop in reservoir level, such air into clutch (dumb mistake, just didn't watch it closely enough)
- Finding hot starter contacts with that little 7mm wrench and lighting up the whole area with a nice spark (hence, the "disconnect negative terminal" comment)
- Spilling fluid (most times I do not lose a single drop now)
I think I've captured it, feel free to ping me directly if any questions. I bleed the brakes about 5-10 times per year with track season and all, so I need it to be a 30-minute excercise.
Oh, almost forgot... Do wear safety glasses or goggles. When that little drain hose pops off the caliper, it will invariably fling fluid at your face sooner or later.
Best of luck!
04-11-2005, 01:06 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Sorry, I cut and pasted from previous right-up...
Brake caliper bleed screws on the NA are 7mm and 8mm, if I recall.
If you get really good at it, there will be a couple of ounces left in the bleeder and your level in the reseroir will be perfect. First time I bled the clutch on the car, there was so much crud coming out I wondered how it was still working. Also, if you can't get ANYTHING to come out of the bleeder screw... modify the method for that corner or clutch slave as follows:
- Pressure bleeder on
- Loosen bleeder
- No fluid flows? If yes, continue below
- Have assistant press appropriate pedal and HOLD down
- Fluid comes out
- Close bleed screw
- Have assistant let the pedal up
- Now, go back to normal process above as you have pushed obstruction out
Brake caliper bleed screws on the NA are 7mm and 8mm, if I recall.
If you get really good at it, there will be a couple of ounces left in the bleeder and your level in the reseroir will be perfect. First time I bled the clutch on the car, there was so much crud coming out I wondered how it was still working. Also, if you can't get ANYTHING to come out of the bleeder screw... modify the method for that corner or clutch slave as follows:
- Pressure bleeder on
- Loosen bleeder
- No fluid flows? If yes, continue below
- Have assistant press appropriate pedal and HOLD down
- Fluid comes out
- Close bleed screw
- Have assistant let the pedal up
- Now, go back to normal process above as you have pushed obstruction out
04-11-2005, 08:59 AM
#13
Nordschleife Master
The raising the rear end of the car deal is related to the clutch slave.
The slave is designed/mounted improperly in that the bleed nipple is not at the top of the cylinder, thus it is tough to get all the entrapped air out. I have taken to pulling the slave out with the hydraualic line attached and tilting it rear end up. Bleed it out and bolt it back in. Works pretty slick if you had a dry line with air in it. Just make sure you don't push the piston rod out of the slave as that isn't held in place by anything other than friction of the rubber boot.
The slave is designed/mounted improperly in that the bleed nipple is not at the top of the cylinder, thus it is tough to get all the entrapped air out. I have taken to pulling the slave out with the hydraualic line attached and tilting it rear end up. Bleed it out and bolt it back in. Works pretty slick if you had a dry line with air in it. Just make sure you don't push the piston rod out of the slave as that isn't held in place by anything other than friction of the rubber boot.
04-11-2005, 09:24 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
944J - No, in my opinion the back of the car does not have to be higher than the front. I have never bled the clutch any other way than having the front of the car ramped up. It has always worked. IceShark makes a good point on the design issue, but it has never been an issue for me, even with air known to be in the line at least twice.
04-11-2005, 10:02 AM
#15
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If you do manage to suck in air by letting the reservoir level get too low, what is the solution? Just keep putting more fluid through the system until the air works it's way out the other end?
-Mark
-Mark