IMB951

Photographic evidence. This is the car he's talking about. As to whether or not the car makes 180rwhp.....sorry I have no evidence. I spoke with the owner of this car with Ashton and he isn't the kinda guy to call BS on right away. He does serious stuff to these cars and knows what he's doing. Again I bring no complete proof, just a little support.

Matt H

Actually very common on 944Ts where there is a large straight, helps to keep those pesky LW 911s behind us. However, I wouldnt trust but about 3 people on this board to be able to do it correctly and not destroy the car.

As to the car above for the nth time after talking to the guy who owns it, there is more than exhaust and intake done to it (though not a lot more).

The engine in the car is just like any other. I know I could make a 200RWHP 2.5V NA, the question is, why bother? I would spend so much doing it that I could have a 951 + 500 bucks and make FAR more power than my NA would. A few of us have talked about doing it but it always come back to one thing, no reason to. Those of us in the know dont doubt for a second we could make 200 maybe even 300 HP NA but for the mint it would cost, just to be able to say we did it, none of us has bothered.

Maybe next year.
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Danno

Maybe never... There's two parallel ideas here that's intertwined and mixed up. You have to separate the two of them.

First train of thought, is simply making more power out of an NA engine. Sure it can be done with tried-and-true hot-rod techniques. As mentioned before, what kind of driving are you doing? Drag-racing? Street-racing, track racing? This will determine where you tune to place the power and torque-peaks. I recommend starting from the inside first, there's no replacement for displacement, so bore the thing out to 104mm and use S2/968 pistons for 2.7L displacement. Or even better, get an S2/968 crank and end up with 3.0L displacement. Even better yet, remove the cylinders altogether and bore it out to 4.375" so you can use big-block Chevy pistons for 3.4L displacement. Automatically you've got a +10%, +20%, +40% increase in power through displacement alone. Displacement is by far the MOST effective mod on the NA engine, NOTHING else will give you much of a power bump and as wide of a power-band as a displacement increase... NOTHING... get that through yer head, NOTHING is a replacement for displacement... NOTHING... bore & stroke would be my very first mod on an NA engine.

Then continue the internal mods with getting lightweight parts such as titanium con-rods to shave around 200gm off each one. Lighten and balance the crank to match. There's a tonne of free HP in the head waiting to be unleashed. Shave it to the maximum to get as high-compression as possible, around 10.5-11.0:1 is target for 91-oct pump gas. You'll want lightweight modern-alloy high-nickel/chromium valves in narrow-stem, flat-head versions (backcut too). Get larger valves if you're boring the motor and use brass-alloy seats for good sealing (low longevity), or beryllium seats for maximum valve & seat life. Then contour the valve-seats with a variable-radius all around. Then go back to your original design goals of what kind of driving as this will dictate the type of porting job you do. Port-velocity changes with RPM and you want to maximize cylinder-filing at the RPM-range where you need it most. Some people may need maximum torque at 3000rpm, others may need maximum-HP at 7000rpm, there's no one right answer.

May also need customized intake-manifold to fully tune for the desired RPm-range. If you want a wide powerband, then you'll need to design and fabricate a custom intake with variable runner-lengths and/or plenum volumes. Also customized exhaust-headers for your power-range target will be needed. Top it off with a cam to match all the above mods (the cam needs to be custom-ground at the very end with all your previous mods and driving-style in mind). Again to get as wide a powerband as possible, you'll want a continuously variable mechanism with variable cam lift, duration and timing like on the latest cars (BMW, Honda, Toyota, Saab, etc.) Add 20-30 hours dyno-tuning time with customized software in your chips and we're set to go with 200-300 HP. Costs? Try $15-25k... nothing is impossible with sufficient cubic dollars.

The second aspect that rears its ugly head is that cost. I don't run into many trust-fund babies buying 944NAs, so I assume that expenses and money does have a factor in your lives. So, you guys want to maximize your benefits for the dollars spent it seems. To get 200HP for $15k + the $2k initial purchase of the 944 for a total of $17k doesn't make sense when you can get a 217HP 951 for $4-6k. Even a 247HP 951S can be found for $8-12k, still lower than $17k. If you want 300HP, just add a $300 chip-kit to the 951 or add another $8,000 on top of your previous $15,000 944 mods. So the choice becomes clear when you inspect the finances. Unfortunately, this second idea of finances usually kills off the first idea of extracting more power from the 944NA.

However, you have to KEEP these two ideas separate. If you want to get more power out of the 944NA, sure it can be done, step up to the plate and put a couple cubic dollars down. No use talking about it if you don't got the dollars, it's a waste of your time and everyone else's. Otherwise sell the 944 and get a 951...

IMB951

Danno, thank you.

jmporsche944

Danno pretty much spelled the situation out perfectly. Unless you got the bills, forget about making the NA any faster than it is.

my84-944

EXACTLY!
Here is my two cents as well.
There are two things that make this so.
1. Ricers can mod their Hondas, Acuras, Nissans, Toyotas, etc, for relatively CHEAP, (due in no small part to the abundance of parts available for these cars). This along with the name PORSCHE keeps most of them away from our cars.
2. Sadly, the above also keeps tuners and aftermarket companies that make the parts for the ricers from producing the parts in a volume that would make them affordable/or cost effective for the 944.
This is the whole circle thing or two edged sword.
While it is ironic it is sadly true.
I for one am both glad and saddened by this. Glad the ricers stay away, but if I could buy parts like they do......
The only logical conclusion?
Enjoy the car, drive the hell out of it and learn how. Then if you have the cash, invest it in the car by doing the modest things first. Then and only then should you play the performance "upgrade game"
IMO

L8 APEKS

Well, I don't think we should forget about making them ANY faster. We can still get a few more ponies for relatively cheap, at least similar to many other N/A cars out there. But as for trying to get 200+rwhp? I agree whole-heartedly.

I think I may still go for my MAF kit in the near future though, just to see what it might do. I will keep this car for a while, and I don't have the cash outright (or the credit) to get a 951 anytime soon. When it comes to 951 time, I think I'll probably just do a swap.

Geo

Me neither. I think all it takes is someone not listening to the "common knowledge" that "it can't be done."

Geo

[QUOTE=my84-944
1. Ricers can mod their Hondas, Acuras, Nissans, Toyotas, etc, for relatively CHEAP, (due in no small part to the abundance of parts available for these cars). This along with the name PORSCHE keeps most of them away from our cars.
2. Sadly, the above also keeps tuners and aftermarket companies that make the parts for the ricers from producing the parts in a volume that would make them affordable/or cost effective for the 944. [/QUOTE]

Nope.

I also run in the Sentra SE-R circles and there is a MUCH smaller market for those cars than for the 8v 944. Yet, we have a much better aftermarket. Not a wide breadth of products available, but the ones we have work well.

Geo

Yep.

my84-944

OK Geo,
I forgot that the basic rules of supply and demand do not apply to you or any point you try and make or refute. After all Supply and demand are only a basic economic rule here, so it has no bearing on the performance market. Sorry you do not agree, but I do stand by what I said before. If more people bought the performance up-grades for 944’s than there would be cheaper technology available.

Geo

Dude, how about the fact that I am writing from actual experience? The ready availablity of aftermarket parts for Honduhs is real, but it's spotty for Nissans and from what I understand, Toyotas as well.

I think more people would buy performance upgrades for the 944 if someone would do a decent development program.

FSAEracer03

Good Lord... is that a new trend? If I had to abide by emissions testing laws, I don't think I'd brag about failing the tests!

I don't get why people say adding power to the NAs is impossible. Though it isn't cheap, if a person already has an NA that they hold close to their heart, and happen to have some extra cash and/or know-how, exhaust mods (cat removal and muffler upgrade), a cam, and a port matched polish WILL give you some more power. It's not just a couple horses that go unnoticed, but it's also not enough to make you wet the seat. Combine that with some weight reduction, though, and you'll have a substancially quicker waterpumper on your hands!

my84-944

This is what I am saying Geo.

Until very recently I worked for an autogroup that sold:
Ferrari, Acura, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Scion, Mazda, Hyundai, KIA, Dodge, Chevrolet, Noble, Ducati, and Lotus, plus several more I won't name.
I can say with 100% certinanty that the parts and accessory departments at each of these dealers with the exception of maybe Kia has 50% more aftermarket stuff than the local Porsche dealer here.

L8 APEKS

Yeah, but a dealership is a very poor representation of the "aftermarket." It's not very "after" if it comes from the dealer!