Planning out 944 suspension upgrades, comments?
#16
Originally Posted by pete944
bader$, I have 200# front springs along with a M030 rear bar and the stock S2 front sway bar. I think it's a very balanced set up.
I'm not sure what size the '88 S front swaybar is but if it's significantly smaller than the S2 bar, you may want to upgrade to the S2 bar.
Replace all your sway bar bushings and upgrade the caster blocks to 968 units and you should be good to go.
I'm not sure what size the '88 S front swaybar is but if it's significantly smaller than the S2 bar, you may want to upgrade to the S2 bar.
Replace all your sway bar bushings and upgrade the caster blocks to 968 units and you should be good to go.
#17
That was how I read it too, you re-index the torsion bars so that the car sits low/ rides softly to start with. The new coil overs should then take up the slack and provide easy (in comparison) ride height adjustment.
#18
Originally Posted by Fishey
There are 5 diffrent suspention bushings.
Springplates inner (2)
Springplates Outer (2)
Torsion tube mount Front (2)
Torsion tube mount Rear (2)
Control Arm Bushings (4 total but 1 set per side)
Then there are the Swaybar bushings front/Rear.
I think thats all of them.
Springplates inner (2)
Springplates Outer (2)
Torsion tube mount Front (2)
Torsion tube mount Rear (2)
Control Arm Bushings (4 total but 1 set per side)
Then there are the Swaybar bushings front/Rear.
I think thats all of them.
#19
when i saw the price for the bilstein escort cup setup, i almost fainted. i spent nearly that much on separate koni coilovers for the front and KLA coilovers for the rear. i would love to have that setup!!
to answer your question - it's much easier (and cheaper) to upgrade the sway bars first and do springs/coilovers later. also, you can adjust for over/understeer using the rear sway bar and tire pressures. however, if your shocks are shot now, might as well go all the way and do the coilovers first.
you could consider (as i am) going to a straight coilover setup in the rear and eliminating the torsion bars altogether. i am told you would definitely need the delrin bushings for added stability.
edit - bader$ - i have the upgraded 968 caster blocks - less rubber compared to original
to answer your question - it's much easier (and cheaper) to upgrade the sway bars first and do springs/coilovers later. also, you can adjust for over/understeer using the rear sway bar and tire pressures. however, if your shocks are shot now, might as well go all the way and do the coilovers first.
you could consider (as i am) going to a straight coilover setup in the rear and eliminating the torsion bars altogether. i am told you would definitely need the delrin bushings for added stability.
edit - bader$ - i have the upgraded 968 caster blocks - less rubber compared to original
#20
Originally Posted by bader$
Mine are 26mm front and 16mm rear i think. Whay do you have to upgrade the caster blocks?
Oh, anyways, the reason for the upgrade is the 968 units are substantially stronger units & the added forces of 17" wheels do nasty things to stock caster blocks.
#21
Originally Posted by Scootin159
I know I'll have to reindex them out of the box, but what about down the road if I decide to change ride height? I'm kinda hoping that by going to the coilovers I'll be able to make whatever changes down the road without having to really touch the tbars again (i.e. maybe playing around with spring rates on the coilovers).
With regards to the pre-load, is this what you're talking about? Since the tbars are equivlient to 150# coilovers (roughly, I forget the exact #'s but will look them up prior to purchasing), and if I add in 150# coilovers, that would get me ~300# effective, right? I imagine ideally I want this as near to 50/50 between the tbars & coilovers as possible, but how do I know how much either is taking? Does it really matter how much either is taking as long as I still have adequate movement in the coilovers?
With regards to the pre-load, is this what you're talking about? Since the tbars are equivlient to 150# coilovers (roughly, I forget the exact #'s but will look them up prior to purchasing), and if I add in 150# coilovers, that would get me ~300# effective, right? I imagine ideally I want this as near to 50/50 between the tbars & coilovers as possible, but how do I know how much either is taking? Does it really matter how much either is taking as long as I still have adequate movement in the coilovers?
I mentioned the pre-load because it is necessary to keep the springs from clanging around on their perches everytime you unload an inside wheel on a bumpy corner. I'd try to shoot for about an inch of pre-load at your preferred final suspension height setting.
Once you get everything set, you could tweek the height of the rear of the car *slightly* with the coilovers (for corner balancing and levelling purposes), but any change of more than fractions of an inch should be acheived by re-indexing, IMHO.
In reality, how many times, once you get it all set up perfect, would you really need/want to raise or lower the car? Probably never.
#22
[QUOTE=joseph mitro]when i saw the price for the bilstein escort cup setup, i almost fainted. i spent nearly that much on separate koni coilovers for the front and KLA coilovers for the rear. i would love to have that setup!!
Who sells this ?
Who sells this ?
#24
Originally Posted by tifosiman
150lb springs on the coilovers in the rear, in addition to the t-bars, will not get you a 300lb effective rate. The effective rate of the springs on the coil-overs is not a 100% relationship, it is somewhere between 60% and 75% depending on whom you speak with. This is due to the placement in relation to the moment arm. I am personally inclined to believe it is around the 60% rate due to trial and error with balancing out the handling of my car and trying various spring rates. (my opinion only, others may be a little bit different in their estimate)Thie means that if you want to acheive an effective 300lb rate in the rear, you really need somewhere around 250lb rear coilover springs.
I mentioned the pre-load because it is necessary to keep the springs from clanging around on their perches everytime you unload an inside wheel on a bumpy corner. I'd try to shoot for about an inch of pre-load at your preferred final suspension height setting.
Once you get everything set, you could tweek the height of the rear of the car *slightly* with the coilovers (for corner balancing and levelling purposes), but any change of more than fractions of an inch should be acheived by re-indexing, IMHO.
In reality, how many times, once you get it all set up perfect, would you really need/want to raise or lower the car? Probably never.
I mentioned the pre-load because it is necessary to keep the springs from clanging around on their perches everytime you unload an inside wheel on a bumpy corner. I'd try to shoot for about an inch of pre-load at your preferred final suspension height setting.
Once you get everything set, you could tweek the height of the rear of the car *slightly* with the coilovers (for corner balancing and levelling purposes), but any change of more than fractions of an inch should be acheived by re-indexing, IMHO.
In reality, how many times, once you get it all set up perfect, would you really need/want to raise or lower the car? Probably never.
You could address the issue of preload with some helper springs though right? They're only like $10/each, so it shouldn't be too big a deal to put some on there (just need some type of ring to go between the main spring & the helper spring). Obviously I'd still want some pre-load though (don't want the spring rate changing every time I get any body roll), just I may be able to go without a full 1" .
but, basically you're saying to save the $$ & go with just tbars as there's no real benefit to coilovers? I don't plan on changing the ride height very frequently (or as you mentioned at all), but do like the idea of having some ride height adjustment. I guess if it's less than 3/4" in ride height adjustment I could do it with the ecentric bolt anyways.
#25
Joseph said it on the 968 caster blocks. Much less rubber = less deflection. They are cheap and easy to replace. You will need an alignment after you're all done anyway so you should replace them while you're in there.
#26
Scootin 159
The biggest advantage of the rear coilover+dtock T-bars is that it would be much easier to change your spring rates. Then again how often will you change that unless you are racing every weekend?
Also to add to what pete said about the casterblocks most of the time the original ones need replacement as they are prone to failure.
The biggest advantage of the rear coilover+dtock T-bars is that it would be much easier to change your spring rates. Then again how often will you change that unless you are racing every weekend?
Also to add to what pete said about the casterblocks most of the time the original ones need replacement as they are prone to failure.
#27
Originally Posted by Scootin159
Thanks for the heads up on the 60% efficency of the coilovers.
You could address the issue of preload with some helper springs though right? They're only like $10/each, so it shouldn't be too big a deal to put some on there (just need some type of ring to go between the main spring & the helper spring). Obviously I'd still want some pre-load though (don't want the spring rate changing every time I get any body roll), just I may be able to go without a full 1" .
but, basically you're saying to save the $$ & go with just tbars as there's no real benefit to coilovers? I don't plan on changing the ride height very frequently (or as you mentioned at all), but do like the idea of having some ride height adjustment. I guess if it's less than 3/4" in ride height adjustment I could do it with the ecentric bolt anyways.
You could address the issue of preload with some helper springs though right? They're only like $10/each, so it shouldn't be too big a deal to put some on there (just need some type of ring to go between the main spring & the helper spring). Obviously I'd still want some pre-load though (don't want the spring rate changing every time I get any body roll), just I may be able to go without a full 1" .
but, basically you're saying to save the $$ & go with just tbars as there's no real benefit to coilovers? I don't plan on changing the ride height very frequently (or as you mentioned at all), but do like the idea of having some ride height adjustment. I guess if it's less than 3/4" in ride height adjustment I could do it with the ecentric bolt anyways.
I personally chose to go with coil-overs for the ability to mess around with spring rates and get things the way I want them to be (my car is always a development vehicle and thus rarely is ever the same). FWIW, I have had 140lb, 150lb, 200lb, 300lb, and finally 400lb rear springs on there. I *may* be finally at the correct spring rates for my application, but you never know. Changing out t-bars everytime I wanted to see a change would have sucked the big one. Again, this is just me, most people would just go with a slightly larger t-bar leave things alone. Keep in mind the following two things, though:
1. The factory used the rear coil-over/t-bar set up on the cup cars.
2. There is a limit to the diameter available in t-bars.
Good luck!
#29
Originally Posted by Fishey
Tifo do you know what torsionbars the cupcars ran?
Also what was the rule on springrates for the coilovers on the rear?
Also what was the rule on springrates for the coilovers on the rear?
Inconstant-wire-diameter, conically shaped, progressive-rate (160 to 410lb/in) Turbo Cup springs on the front. (These utilized the stock-configuration spring perches)
Inconstant-wire-diameter, cylindrical, progressive-rate, 2.25 inch internal diameter, Turbo Cup springs on the rear. Most sources suggest these springs have a rate of 140 to 405lb/in.