Robby

Steve- thanks for the input- that's what I was thinking w/the HP question... Do you (or anyone else) know how good the E36 chassis was &/or if it was comparable to the 951? C&D always rated the E36 chassis the best chassis ever made until the Audi V6TT S4's came out- they were definatey ONE of the stiffest... I would REALLY like to know how good our chassis are overall- I've heard both extremes- Cervelli used to say they weren't very good compared to modern cars & called them "flexi-flyers." But, I'm starting to wonder if there is a point where it doesn't much matter anymore- I had an 89 Integra- the 2nd Gen Integra came out in '90- I had a test that said that it was ~90% stiffer in torsion & ~60% stiffer in bending, or, vice versa- the Corrado chassis was considered, by many, to be the best FWD chassis made at the time. The Honda S2000 is a convertible & is supposedly stiffer than most coupes, AND, it's still relatively light (just over 3000lbs)- it's supposed to be one of the best made. I'd love to learn more about chassis design, etc, but, it is very rarely discussed here...

Swagger- I would think so too- the 951 would be much faster on longer courses w/faster corners- it would dust the E30 M3 in straightline acceleration- the E30M3 ran the 1/4 in ~15.0. I HAVE discussed it's handling w/a FEW people though, &, it can evidently handle like it's on rails. It's much more of a race car than the E36M3's, from what I'm told- everyone says the E36 went more towards luxury, but, I think those who have ridden in one w/stiffer suspensions would be quite impressed- anyway, everyone said the E46 M3's went back towards the E30 in terms of feel- I disagree- I think the E46M3's feel more luxury-oriented than the E36M3. It's DEFINATELY much heavier. As for auto-X, I can't imagine any 944 variant keeping up w/the E30M3... Interesting your 951 feels flatter in corners though- do you have any mods? I wonder how the E30 would feel w/stiffer shocks/springs &/or if there are beefier sways avaiable for it...(?)

Steve PH

I've driven an E36 M3 EVO on a couple of occasions but only on the road, nice car but a little soft for my tastes. No idea what the handling was really like on the limit (customers car!). Personally I felt the steering lacked feel in comparison to the 944's I've driven and it felt a bit less chuckable (probably because its a fair bit heavier). The engine was absolutely brilliant though, what a noise! And with 320 bhp not exactly lacking power either.

As for what difference the multi link rear makes I cant really say, although according to what I've heard I believe its set up to make the handling safer (less prone to lift off over steer in an emergency situation) rather than making the car any faster.

Epic2112

I do, I've gone into curves that I didn't realize were as sharp as they were with the M3 and thought to myself in that split second where I realized how sharp they actually were "Oh ****, I've just put my car into the wall", then when I turn the wheel the car glides along the sharp corners without even so much as a squeal from the tires. I know that my 951, with full M030 would not have taken those turns as well.

With regards to speed, on the other hand, the M3 can't hold a candle to the 951. Especially if it's tuned.

BTW, in the US all M3s were the 197 hp version. In Europe there was the Group A 2.3L which was 300 hp, and the Sport Evolution Group A 2.5L which was 330 hp, but yes, these were only used on the track.

Robby

Steve- The E36 M3 EVO- THAT was a car! I would LOVE to have one of those- even moreso than the E46M3- it DID have a 6-sp didn't it? I'd be curious to know what it's gearing was... As for the suspension & all, I think I would agree- if it were mine, I would do the suspension just like the other guys i mentioned- H&R coil-overs about twice as stiff as stock- I think the multi-link is the main reason why it was still so compliant, but, could be wrong. Now THAT car was every bit as tossable as my 951S. I've only been in one other, but, didn't get a chance to drive it- I HACVE driven an E46M3 convertible though, as well as an M5, &, I think both could handle more spring rate, but, they were pretty nice compared to the average car...

In any event, I always thought the reason for multi-link was along the lines of what you said- it supposedly allows the wheel to move up & down in a straight line keeping the camber from changing- this makes sense that it would be safer in such situations as the car will not get a s squirrly when going over pavement irregularities- this is why I think that on track cars wouldn't matter as much- there you would have no problems w/bumps, etc- everything is perfectly smooth....

I ALSO agree about the steering feel- our cars have EXCELLENT on-center feel- I wanted to go manual, but, after trying a 931, I've decided I like mine too much- I'd like it to be a little stiffer, but... the manual was actually too EASY to turn at first... till about a 1/4 turn- then it got much heavier- it wasn't really linear feeling either... not sure why- I really did not expect it to feel that way...

Steve PH

Yes it did have the 6sp box, didn't say it was a bad car just that in comparison to my ancient 944 NA 2.5 it felt a bit heavy, changing the spring rates may help make it feel a bit lighter on its feet though !

Personally I really rate the M-Coupe, I suppose I just prefer smaller/lighter vehicles in general !

Chase72

Hey guys, thanks for all the comments so far... did not realize my situation would spark such a debate, and that's why Rennlist is so cool... But I guess I did want to have a clever answer come Monday morning... would a stock S2 be able to take on a stock E30 M3? (we're not comparing E36, E46 or 951...)

Mike Buck

Why in the world would somebody say something like that? Clearly he is compensating for an incredibly small package. I would think most E30 M3 owners are car enthusiasts, that guy is just a *****. You had the right response to his statement . . . and leave it at that. Don't provoke his prickness anymore.

Robby

Oh I know you didn't mean it was a bad car- didn't mean to sound as if I did- I really DO think it's true that stiffer springs help make cars FEEL lighter- they are just so much quicker to respond & more tossable, etc. I think my 951 feels lighter since I went to 275lb springs.

As for the M-coupe- I've heard they're awesome to drive- I just hate the way they LOOK. The new Z4 is cool- I like smaller ligher cars too- I'm beginning to want a slightly larger car though- about the size of an S4 (the TTV^- not hte V8- not sure if the V8 style is any larger or not though). The M3 4-door was one of the best- it was the exact same size, wheelbase, etc, of the 2-dr version & only weighed more 8lbs (according to one magazine)- probably just the hardware- they supposedly cut the front doors shorter to make room for the rear ones...

Chase72

HI Mike: Yeah, you are right. I really admire the E30 M3 and used to own a 325 of the same E30 class... My co-worker really is a ***** (coincidentaly his name is Dick). But his challenge did prompt me to be curious in "what would happen" if both cars were squared off... Thanks for your comments.

Robby

Mike- How have you been man? The bra is working well- thanks a million... YES- I DO agree that the orignal statement made by the E30M3 owner was a *****-statement.... That's a silly attitude. I love to play around & have fun, seeing who's car is faster (w/at least relative safety), etc, but, it's all in fun.... when people take it too seriously, it's not fun anymore... Most guys who make statements like this really aren't that fast anyway- it is strange though- I would think an M3 owner would be more of an enthuiast too....

Chase- sorry for the tangents. I personally think it would be EXTREMELY close in a straightline- given both cars in equal state of tune & both drivers equal ability, etc... If you thikn about it, the HP:weight ratio is about equal- plugging in 3100lbs for the S2, I'm getting 1:14.9 & using 2950 for the M3, I'm getting 1:15.36- I also used 192HP- someone earlier said it was a little higher, but, I'm pretty sure the states had 192 & I know the TQ was a hair lower. The S2 PROBABLY has slightly taller gearing- if BMW did the E30 anything like the E36, then, that car has SHORT gearing- you'd be at a disadvantage here, especially at parking lot speeds. I've only seen several 1/4 mile stats for the S2- 14.8 to 15.0. The M3 I've always seen listed as 15.0 to 15.2. So, in the end, I would say, everything else being equal, that the S2 would be slightly faster in straightline acceleration & would almost SURELY top out a few mph faster- it should be capable of right at 150mph- the M3 shouldn't be much over 140 I wouldn't think. As for corners & braking- I think braking would be VERY close. In an Auto-X, the M3 SHOULD win- I'd also have to give the edge to the M3 for longer roads w/faster turns, but, it should be a hair closer here. The big question is- does your S2 have M030 or not? If not, everything I said should definately be true, but, if so...well... I still think everything would lean that direction, BUT, it would be VERY close... Close enough so that NEITHER of you would win by a large enough margin to have bragging rights, although it sounds like this guy would do it anyway IF he won... find out & let us know... :-)

Chase72

Robby: Thanks for your comments and support. To be honest, I'm not one to go out and make somebody else's day by acting the fool. I'll let him continually wonder "what if" in that little mind of his until he goes crazy. Personally, I think the challenge would be very interesting under Auto-X conditions--but when I think about it, I believe it comes down to the skills of the driver.

It's been a thought provoking thread, hasn't it?

Chase

Robby

True enough- In the end, I honestly believe that these two cars are close enough EVERYWHERE in performance, to where the driver would USUALLY make the dif- the only time this would not normally be the case is when two professionals are driving them &THAT is the way I try to compare car to car- assuming you could get 100% from each of them... But, in the real world, driver input makes more dif than on the track w/seriously skilled drivers- I've gotten away from a LOT of drivers, but, honestly don't consider myself that great of a driver overall- got rid of the attitude about the time I graduated HS actually....

FSAEracer03

I'm not sure if anyone has presented this info yet, but the E30's are very peaky. They only get their 195hp from high revs, really. They don't have much torque and don't have much get-up-and-go as the S2. They will kill a stock 944 in a straight line, but won't match an S2 or 951.

Who knows what they'll do in the curves. Like people have said, it depends on the drivers for one thing... but my guess would be the edgy little thing would kill in slower speed turns (it's pretty stiff) but lose that advantage in the higher speed curves.

If this is the standard "vs." thread, you'll beat him. If you plan on legally doing this, you might school him pretty well if the track is a higher speed course. Who knows if it's a low-speed course, though.

Re-animator

E30s have a rep of being tail happy in the hands of an amateur. Makes one wonder if many guys like your co-worker ever get it past 6/10ths anyway.

hosrom_951

M3 4cylinder? either i was sleeping or i missed something

Yeah, it's darn freezing now, strong winds, rains etc.......if you searched a bit under my username, you'd see that it hailed here

Seriously, both cars are zippy, but the Porsche sure does give you shocks to your heat, mind and wallet when it comes to problems and repairs


PS Did you pass by Dubai lately?