I cringe everytime I see this kind of attitude.

The reason that there are so many $2-$3000k 944's out there, is because the OWNERS are cheap!. Rather than spend what is required to properly maintain their Porsche cars, they jury rig. Or worse...they let their 944's turn to junk, devalueing all 944's.

A Porsche car has gained its level of performance/longevity/respect, not by compromise, but by the use of superior engineering and high quality manufacturing. This costs more.

My 951 performs at a level with the Cobra Mustangs, 996 turbos, etc. yet I have not spent near those kind of dollars. However with what I have spent, I could have bought 8 or 9 1980 Hondas.

Buy a freakin Honda....and then just throw it away when something breaks, no loss!

I wonder how many 356's were lost to this unforgiveable attitude. It all makes sence, when you see a better than original 356 drive by. Not to mention the prices they garner.

Rant off.

 

Thank god someone else agrees with me.

However, every time I say something like this here on this BBS I get blasted by someone. (Case in point, the many threads about cheap-azzes that won't spend the $42 or whatever it takes to order a new shift rod, and post endlessly about trying to cobble something together themselves).

Better put your flame retardant suit on.

 

I understand how you cringe at that, and I am not saying that people shouldn't use good parts. If you just bought a 1983 944 for $3000, $600 in bushings is alot of money. If you are turning it into a race car you might expect that, but for a street car that is tough.

For my 951, I am considering the ERP bushings. I also don't have a $3000 944. Putting 20% of the value of your car into bushings is tough for anyone.

I certainly don't believe Chuck's prices are too high. They are simply expensive products. I do think that Porsche's suspension piece prices are exorbitant. Ultimately, it is a very tough decision for the owners of less valuable early 944s to make when it comes to replacing certain parts.

Maybe you are implying that by no compromise, those that buy early 944's for very low prices (<$3000) really shouldn't even buy them at all unless they can afford ERP bushings. That would really devalue the price of 944's as many of these cars would end up in the junkyard instead.

BTW, I really don't want to start flame war. I completely understand where you are coming from, but I don't think it is that simple.

Max

 

For reference, I have spent:
30% of the cars value on wheels
30% on a turbo
10% on exhaust
30% on head work
30% on a MAF upgrade

there is a lot more as well...and I am on the cheap side. For Chuck's solution the price is VERY VERY reasonable.
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Wrong.

I am saying, maintain your Porsche car. Keep it in a like new condition. Be a proud keeper of the marquee. If you buy a run down car, restore it because you love the marquee and the car. If not all at once...one quality piece at a time, till it is restored.

It may someday become the next 356.

Or not.

Let it waste away, taken to a junk yard, picked to the bone like a Thanksgiving turkey. Then my 951 will become that much more rare.

 

I am not saying you shouldn't spend that, it is your perogative. I am just saying that for many people that purchase a $3000 car, those prices will seem high. Given what you are buying, they are a very good price. If someone just wants to replace crappy old bushings and rubber would be adequate, they are screwed.

Certainly, there are exceptions, myself included. Keep in mind though, that a good number of 944 owners are pretty cheap. I am just stating the facts. Bill, Tifo, Matt, myself and a handful of others are not the norm.

I also don't look down upon those that are trying to get the enjoyment of a Porsche out of a smaller budget. My setup is certainly peanuts compared to someone with a brand new Cup Car or a 996tt. They might dump $5000 on a suspension and not think twice.

Max

 

Matt,

Concur. That is the point I was trying to make....til I got a little side tracked.

 

Got my 84 944 chassis for $1600 back in 1998. I picked up another parts car turn autocross car for $1250 and got my latest parts car for $330.

The cars are cheap. The value of 944-spec cars is actualty much more than it was when I got it. My guess is 10 -to-12k. That said $600 is still alot for bushings espically when cheaper one work just fine. On the aluminum control arms the red welt's work just fine. I put those on my 88 Turbo S street car along with 968 Caster blocks.

On my 944-spec race car we are not allowe by rule to run metal bushings. Mostly because that will just make the cars cost another $500 or so to build vs non-metalic. From my experience the Delrin a great upgrade to steel arm race cars. The are a little pricey compared to welt reds, but under than abuse actually work (don't get torn-up) and are cheaper than metalic. I can't say for sure on aluminum arm cars. Hey to put in perspective $500 is set of tires that will last you 1/2 a season.

I guess my point is that the delrins are pretty good. Metaic are better for racing applications, but not so much better as to justify their cost. Espeically in spec series where the idea to race and keep costs down. It is just like us running toyo's vs hoosiers. Sure the hoosiers are faster and therefore better, but for what it costs to run them. It is not worth it and toyos do a nearly as good a job at a much better cost.

Along those lines we could allow guys to install JRZ, Moton, Ohlins, or other high dollar racing shocks. Do they work better then the Koni yellows and Bilsteins we are allowed. For sure, but again they cost so much more that is racing any better or is it just .5 seconds faster and cost $5000 more just to have a competitive car.

Hey for a street car JRZ, Moton, or Ohins are just a plain waste of money. You will never need nor use that performance level. Heck i'd bet most racers can't even use all their performance and tuning ability.

This not about devaluing a 944. It is about being smart with what you spend money on and what you don't.

 

AMEN! Bill, I suggest you stop taking this discussion board so seriously. Perhaps you are the lameoid for believing somebody would make bushings out of wood, it was a joke. relax! I'm going to throw away the reds and go with delrin, reindex the rear and get the 250s for the front. Thanks guys, this has been real helpful.

 

Adding to the above. Some people have money to throw at things, being a automotive student I prefer to test parts and see if perhaps they can be repaired. This to some might be "jury rig", to me its quite sensible to work with what you have instead of throwing parts in a car that might not need them. I apologize for my use of the term lamoid above. I don't know bill and therefore can't call him names.

 

get your head out of 'the cave'. people are actually trying to help you. no need to be rude and ungrateful. if i had any sense id tell you off right now, but im better than that.

porsches are expensive. there is no such thing as a cheep porsche. yes you can buy a car for cheep, but parts are expensive. you bought a porsche expect to pay porsche prices for parts. you can 'jerry rig' all you want, but if you want to correctly repair your car, or prepare your car for any kind of events, then be prepared to spend money. it is cheeper to do it once, and do it right. BELIEVE
ME. ive try avoiding spending the money to do it right, and im still paying for it.

 

I think this discussion has gone down the tubes but that everyone means well. Beatdown, I don't think Bill was trying to be a jerk. I think he was just trying to help everyone out. He loves these cars and feels that subpar parts shouldn't be put on them. I agree with him completely.

The difference comes in what people feel are subpar parts. Some people might laugh at someone still using factory control arms when the only acceptable replacements are charlie arms...at $1600/set. Very few people own them and I can see why. To those that do own them, great. To those that choose to stick with stock, great.

Now, the limit to frugality is when it eventually costs you more in the end. I don't know if this applies in this situation, but we find that many 944 owners try to get by on the bare minimum and cry foul when their timing belt snaps. Caveat emptor.

Bill, Matt and Harry are all true enthusiats. Their opinions are honest even if I don't agree with them. I suggest you respectfully disagree with them, Beatdown.

Max

 

"rude and ungrateful" am I coming across as rude and ungrateful? I'm not going to change a thing until I know that it is defective. Call it what you will, thats me. once again, thanks guys. this has been real helpful.

 

yes. rude and ungrateful. calling someone a 'lameoid' rude.. being sarcastic in that and previous posts..... yes that was rude and ungrateful.

even if you took it back.. you could have at leasted edited it so no one sees it.. (or at least try)


if someone offers suggestions and you dont like em, all you have to say is 'thank you for the help guys. while i respectfully disagree, the responces were helpful. i think i will try it this way or that way and see where that gets me.'

 

sorry harry, not going to cover my moves and worry about peoples emotions. I apologized for my comment, im not gonna hide it. suggestions accompanied with the term idiot will get no respect from me. the last i checked we were all men. no *** kissing here. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY MORE WHINY REMARKS FROM THIRD PARTYS. I got what i started this post for, honest opinions from fellow car enthusiasts and i respect their opinions. so thanks everybody WHO HELPED THIS CONVERSATION.
the end.