Skip

that's right - my bad. ASP won't allow them either unless they were originally available. We definitely recommend the Delrin with any torsion bar upgrade. You'll likely understand why when you see the state of the OE bushings.

TheRealLefty

I'm running the Skip's previously outlined "Stage One" set up on my autoX NA in CSP.

200# front Weltmeisters. New Yellow Koni's all around (no coils in the rear). 23 mm tubular OE bar in the front with new bushings, 19 mm M030 adjustable in the rear (using middle setting right now) with sperical bearing KLA drop links, KLA front strut brace and carbon-kevlar brake pads grabbing cross drilled Zimmermans. 2.5 degrees negative camber all around.

This is a very streetable set up, adjustable at the track (autox at Cumberland Airport, DE at Summit Point) using front shock stiffness and air pressures. The rear is dropped as low as it can go on the OE ride height eccentric, but the torsion bars are not indexed. Nice and level with the one inch or so front drop. Not too low. Competitive in CSP. Great turn in. Good in the middle. A little loose out, but that's got a bit to do with the lack of LSD.

This car has gobs of grip and runs in the top 20-25 among 100 car fields. Don't know if the voodoo would stay with 50 more ponies or not...but I'll get to compare soon as I am buying my brother's Turbo S over the winter. May be eating my words on balance once the KKK kicks in

tconn

Thanks Skip

What would you recomend for a good Autox/street/ maybe a couple track days a year?
I've got the stock M030 struts/springs with the M030 30mm bar up front.
I've got new last spring Koni yellow with the M030 19mm bar in the rear.
I'm going to send my struts to Koni for a rebuild . Is it worth having them
modified for double adjustability? Should they be re-valved if I increase the spring rate?
Are 300# springs to firm for what I'm doing with the car?

Thereallefty, yes the turbo is a challenge for autoX . I'm already thinking
968 in another year or so.

Thanks

Darth Coupe

Skip, are you sure that you are not allowed to run coilovers in street prepared classes in SCCA? When I ran the Prelude in DSP just a year ago suspension was free as long as you had the same pick up points. I ran the Koni/Ground Control coilover setup in my car and everyone else was running some form of coilover in the street prepared classes. Did the rules change this year?

tifosiman

Gotta respectfully disagree with you on this point (once again). A lot has to do with the way the car is set up, the weight of the car, etc. Ask anyone around here who has went for a ride in my car with 400lb springs on it. Even my girlfriend says the ride is not to harsh for her at all, she even prefers it to the ride of our SUV.

tconn

I way I read the 2004 rules (2005 isn't out yet) springs and dampers were open as long as pick up points were not changed. Metal bushings(sphereical)
were not allowed.

Tifo, looking at other post of yours it seems you have alot of experience racing
Autox.
What do you run for suspension? Could you share?
Thanks

Matt H

Virtually every car made now comes with a "coil-over" front setup. Your Prelude also came with coil over rears while the 944 did not. I suppose you might argue that since the 968 Turbo came with coil overs (as wells as 944 Firehawk cars) that there is some precedence for it
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tifosiman

Coil-overs vs. Torsion bars, coil-overs in conjuntion with torsion bars, and torsion bar delete, are all topics that will get wide, varying opinions and responses on this BBS.

All I can do is respond as to what works for me. Taking a page from the way that Porsche set up the 951 Turbo Cup cars and Firehawk cars in the back end, I have stock t-bars in the rear, re-indexed, in conjunction with coilovers. 400lb springs over KLA coil-over units. In the front, I have Koni shocks with the Paragon ARHK set-up, also with 400lb springs. KLA upper strut tie bar. 968 M030 sway bars all around, with the rear set on the "medium" hole setting. With the increase in front spring rate, I added SSI balljoints, 968 caster blocks, and Weltmeister bushings. I have -2 degrees front camber, -1.6 degrees rear camber.

The result, for me, is a well-balanced car that is very neutral, with very little, if any understeer and the ability to induce a little throttle-oversteer.

Everyone's driving style is different, so what works for one person will not work for others. I would suggest that you test-drive some others cars with different set-ups and get a good feel for the differences.

Also to the above point, a "towing option" (# escapes me at the moment) was available to order on post-85 cars, that added coilovers to the rear of the car. A point could be argued that since it was available from the factory, it was "stock".

Matt H

They had a factory towing option? Well, who knew!
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J Chen

Skip, I agree with you about adding the derlin bushings.
May I add some more comments, going to coilovers does
increase noise intrusion into the cabin especially if the
car is daily driven as well. Also you must install at least
a roll bar with attachment points to the rear to stiffen
up the chassis.

joseph mitro

wow, that's pretty stiff in the rear. and you don't get any significant oversteer with 400 lb helper springs in the rear and 400 in front? also, are you using the stock koni yellows with "off the shelf" valving? i have the exact same setup you do with 275lb front and 150 lb rear springs. i'm thinking of going to 350 front and 250-300 rear, but would like to go stiffer if the valving can handle it.

tifosiman

Yeah, I can't find the file I saved here, may be on my other laptop. Now that I think about it, it could have been a dealer option. I printed out the info I had on it and had it in my glove-box if it was ever needed at an event.

tifosiman

Nope, no sig oversteer at all. Keep in mind that the effective spring rate on the rear is less due to the placement of the spring in relation to the pivot point of the banana arm.

Koni Yellows are good up to about 400lbs. Anymore than that, you would want custom valving, IMHO.

I have had no problems yet.

I do have a Redline 4 point hoop in the back. I have never run my high spring rates without it, so I cannot comment as to whether there is chassis flex or not with the high rate. I'm not certain if I could feel that or not...

tifosiman

Might I add that if one goes with coil-overs in the back, re-indexing of the t-bars really is necessary to get the proper pre-load on the coil-overs to keep them from clanging around and get the ride height back to a desired level.

The re-indexing is pretty tricky. Not only is it a time-intensive job, you really need to ensure that you have the right amount of preload relative to how high you want the car to be with the coil-overs in the back and not have the two different spring-types fighting with each other.

joseph mitro

yea, that's my concern when i reindex - preloading both torsion bars and springs the same so they work in concert rather than against each other. how did you do it? do you unload the bars and springs and set them at their limit of travel so they will be loaded at the same rate?