Ron_H

All those who are concerned about accumulating citations, particularly illegally written ones, should read this webpage. (If you feel it is your obligation to occasionally confess your flaws and pay your dues, no matter how unjustified the accusation, ignore the rest of this message. That line forms on the Right).

http://www.valentine1.com/pop/

Smokey's got a new plot to extort your earnings and blood based on flawed science and you should beware of this before it is too late. It is already here. You need to be able to defend yourself against it, or join the above mentioned group of masochists. For older V-1 owners, there is no readily available upgrade at this time, but it is being developed they said. Keep checking the website for notification of availability. I suspect that Valentine wants to be certain it works properly and reliably before upgrades are available.

Rich Sandor

so basically you're saying: If you get a ticket and the clocked speed doesn't seem right, ask the cop what model radar gun he's using, and if it's a BEE III ask if he was on POP mode! If he was, dispute the ticket.

sounds simple to me.

thanks for the info.

Ron_H

If you can get him/her to admit to the use of POP mode, it is simple. But be prepared to prove in court the ineffectiveness and inaccuracies of the POP mode which is only supposed to be used to initially determine if someone is suspect, just as initial visual estimating is supposed to be used prior to using a radar unit (Ka).

badcoupe

All you have to due in court is ask for the last gun calibration tuning fork calibration and the occifer's last training seesion. this stuff has to be done periodically and most departments don't do it if it's not within state guidlines they have to throw the tickets out. Most prosecutors won't bother and will dismiss the ticket immediately ask me how I know!!

88BlueTSiQuest

And we all know how often that actually occurs. I've never been ticketed by a cop that was actually 'estimating' my speed visually at first, nope every ticket I received was based solely on radar and a speed trap scenario....

JediAgent

So how often are they supposed to calibrate their guns? And how often are they supposed to be trained in using the gun? Also, if they didn't use a visual guesstimation before the use of the (ka) are they not supposed to use the gun?

Ron_H

Yes, prior to placing the gun into operation on a suspect vehicle, the officer is supposed to visually estimate that vehicle's speed. I have heard from " one to two seconds", which, at 60 mph, is 176 feet. Ask when he first became aware of your presence and then go back and measure the site. Also be aware of his position relative to your vehicle and realize that there is an error (cosine error) if he is without that angle (more than the angle) which will give a false reading.
Off the top of my head, I recall 15 degrees to the roadway. Think about on ramps and when he first spotted you and you can see that the angle or the visual or both might be way off. You can present that information in court. If you can convince the jovial judge, his majesty, that you're correct, you walk.

It states in the training manuals how often the guns must be calibrated. As I understand it, the tuning fork must be used to test the gun before each shift, but I would need to verify that. Use discovery to obtain the specific manual for the gun used and if your request is honored, you can extract that information.
If your request is NOT honored, move for an immediate dismissal.

It is illegal in California to use radar on a roadway that has not first had an engineering survey performed by a traffic engineer to determine the appropriate speed limit. There are no engineering speed surveys performed on the freeways in my county prior to posting the speed limits, because if they were performed, the speed would be set at 75 mph at least, according to a senior traffic engineer for Caltrans. (Your county may vary, but I doubt it.) Using a federal speed limit sign on a freeway without first performing an engineering survey to establish the speed limit, is a violation of federal law. Isn't that interesting?? The conclusion is:
a) nobody really cares about your safety; b) nobody cares about your insurance rates or cash on hand status; c) somebody is breaking the very laws they ask you to observe; d) someone is oblivious to the intent of the law; e) all of the above ???

badcoupe

yes they have to use a tuning fork which also must be calibrated. There is an E-book you can buy that tells about all of this my friend bought and we've used it with great sucess

UDPride

You may be able to amateur lawyer your way on a couple tickets, but in most parts of the country the traffic judge could care less about your nice suit, big speech, flow charts, trigonometry calculations, and citations from the traffic code that seemingly exonerate you. All he hears is "He was speeding and the radar said XXmph" by the officer and you are toast.

In most cases anyway, you WERE speeding and while probably not for the conditions of the road, you were definitely begging for a ticket and overstepping the margin of error (7-10mph). So just pay the ticket, slow down, and move on with life. To me, its not really worth fighting unless you were sure you were NOT speeding or were 1-3mph over which can be a difference in speedo accuracy.

I really dont know why ppl legitimately doing 20mph over or whatever fight the tickets and rag on the cops. Ive been driving for 14yrs and never once have I been pulled over and Ive driven through all the same speed traps everyone else has. And on a back country road Ive been known to let my car open up a bit as long as theres no traffic. Im not saying I wouldnt fight a ticket I even knew I was completely guilty on just to save my ***, but I think I might just pay it and take it as a lesson learned or a "cost of driving".

Msybe Im just lucky but when I see a hill, I slow down until I crest the hill. Cops like to sit on the other side of any hill. When I see blind turns, I slow down because cops like to sit around blind corners. I drive 1/4 to 1/2 mile ahead with my eyes on country roads looking to each side of the road for cops in turn-offs and sitting in grassy knolls. I memorize where Ive seen cops before in my town and always slow down in those areas or roads every time I drive. Theres probably 4-5 places on my drive to and from work every day I purposely let off the gas at because I know cops have hid there. 99% of the time they arent there, but now and then they do reappear.

Anyway. Is it true cops to leave their radar gun on all the time and sit it in their lap have ***** the size of a kangaroo?

JediAgent

Huh? That could be really funny because your UDPride, but i don't understand.

What do you do for a living that makes anywhere between 2 and 6 hours of court not worth the $150+ for that ticket and the $600+ (avg $200 increase over 3 years) for insurance NOT worth it? If you were to even spend only $500 on a ticket it would be more than worth the 5 hours you spent on it. Heck, even if you spend 10 hours it would still be worth it to most people. Yes, i know im neglecting to mention traffic school, but my philosophy is that earned income credit is no substitute for lower taxes and a more efficient government even though is does help to soften the blow. Analogies off.
I drive alot of the same way you do, looking out for everything esp. cops, slowing down in the most suspicious areas, and memorizing hot spots and i haven't been pulled over in quite a while now (being as how im 21, quite a while is 2 years) and im proud of that. But traffic tickets are still the bul**** fascism of the modern driving era. I won't give in to a fine no matter what i was doing because i don't respect the financial destination of my penance. It would be the equivalent of legal protest. I wholeheartedly agree with Ron_H when he says traffic law and all of its constituents exist for the finanicial gain of the state, and not the welfare of its inhabitants. If every licensed driver decided to buck the system and fight every ticket dispersed, whether fighting via mail or in person, the cost of maintaining the court system would skyrocket, and the state would quickly realize that their profitable business has ended.

As far as "sucking it up and paying for your errors" - well, my remorse or repentance exists between me and God. My guilt exists between me and either a judge or a jury. My right is "innocent until proven guilty" - My choice is to fight for my innocence.

Otherwise, this is all in good fun. Just wanted to lay down my $.02 and question your ideals in a contructive way.

Ron_H

Think about this: There is no such thing as "speeding". The speed limits are required to be set according to sound scientific engineering priciples and allowing the traffic to flow DECREASES accidents. We have the statistics to prove that, and so does Italy which just RAISED their limits to decrease accidents. When the limits are set unrealistically low, we are all at risk, and the law is being violated. Next I will be required to pay a fine for wanting to stay healthy and exceeding my intake of healthful food, or exercising too frequently. We are being forced to de-evolve. These tactics insult my intelligence. If everyone that ever exceeded the speed limit or jaywalked or whatever else was required to submit to a fine, everyone would lose their license, including probably the Pope. The continual suppression of human endeavor under the guise of "safety" but for the real purpose of taxation is tyranny. And as administered by some insecure, barely literate intelligence challenged bears is sadism. No thank you. I have a responsibility to object to the abuse of power of these goons and their coniving cronies because what they are doing is not only unsafe and dishonest, it is ILLEGAL.

UDPride

My point was, for the most part cops are good guys, and for the most part, cops writing tickets are good guys too. I have NO problem with cops writing speeding tickets. Maybe on Porsche board thats like sleeping with the antichrist, but cops stick their *** on the line to protect me and my family so if that means they need to throw out a few tickets because some people are driving like they are 25 minutes late for everything on the road, I say go for it. Its easy to say these goons are out there just to make money, but when your daughter gets sideswiped by a jagoff doing a generic 15mph over the limit, you canbe sure youll be all over the guys case for "speeding" and killing your daughter. So in most cases, speeding is only "ok" when its swings in our favor.

You cant have it both ways. You cant have cops out there trying to keep the roads safe, and yet tell them to go fly a kite. They are ordinary ppl just like you and me. If you dont like the tickets, then just slow down a bit. Its really not difficult to stay out of speeding tickets.

One of my best friends was a cop and had a revolver stuck to his neck and blown away in front of his children. Maybe Im more sensitive about it. But most cops ARE on our side. And when and if I get nailed for speeding and I KNOW I was speeding, Ill probably just send in the ticket. Its a good way to remind me that speeding CAN kill -- even if its not me. And losing some cash over it is a nice way to make sure I get the msg rather than just pass it off as no big deal -- which it isnt. At least until someone gets killed.

Not to say I never speed either. But rarely around other people or in traffic. If you are really fighting traffic tickets all the time, you are just driving way too fast for your own good. Not that Im indicting anybody here, just more or less a generic observation.

Ron_H

Believe it or not, some of my best friends have been cops, including traffic cops.

But be careful when defining "speeding" with exceeding an illegally and dangerously posted limit that the cops, the courts and the traffic engineers all know is causing rather than preventing accidents, (like sideswiping your daughter's car). Speed in and of itself is not dangerous. If it was, we would cease using jets and return to prop planes and we would terminate the space shuttle program because some astronauts were killed doing what one of the best controlled and scientifically founded technological pursuits was regarded as safe. The fact that there are inept and unaware drivers out there who exceed the posted limit and crash doesn't mean that exceeding a poorly posted limit will result in crashes. And some cops realize that, because they have brains and use them, they regularly exceed the posted limit, they weave in and out of traffic as a matter of course as they work their way through traffic in the left lane which IS dangerous, and they do not get involved in crashes. Speed is not the problem; control of the vehicle at any speed is the problem. Chances are the jerk who crashes would have crashed at a slower speed or perhaps not. Perhaps someone else wasn't paying attention. And bear in mind that cops are not qualified to pass judgement when determining causes of accidents; traffic engineers are. It is too easy to just say if I slow my relative speed and obey the posted limit I will be safe and not cause danger to others. The fact is, that is precisely why more accidents happen; complacency and false sense of security and that fact is documented. Traveling the posted speed limit will not protect you or anyone else from inattention or ineptitude. Letting traffic flow, just as letting water find its own level will allow potentially conflicting situations to vaporize. It does in Germany, where your Porsche is driven safely at speeds cops and courts claim is impossibly dangerous under any conditions in the US. Baloney. PEOPLE SIMPLY WON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS. As proof of this is the attitude of lowering illegal blood alcohol level as a way to prevent the number of drunk driving accidents in this country. This targets the occasional driver who had a couple of beers, rather than the habitual alcoholic driver who is really responsible for those accidents. Why? Because that habitual drunk doesn't think he is impaired....he is always that way and that seems normal to him, while the occasional drinker, knowing he has had a couple of beers and could be impaired will tend to be extra careful.

Sorry, but parroting the "official" attitude toward a behavior that a few people in authority have decided to criminalize without justification and going along with that attitude without question won't work. People are dying because of it, others are reaping tremendous profits because of it, and the sheeple who condone it to gain social approval are as guilty of the perpetrators of the lies by the authorities. You think your Porsche was designed to operate safely at the speeds claimed to be criminally dangerous by these perpetrators as some sort of marketing game? Guess again. Give yourself and your scholarly abilities a little more credit. And demand more stringent licensing laws and training including lessons in vehile dynamics. And believe that if the engineering studies were actually performed properly in cases where they were required, the speed limits would be RAISED, according to a highly placed California traffic engineer, who knows that would LOWER the accident rate. But think of the people that would put out of work.

JediAgent

UDPride,
I have absolutely no grip with cops - well, not entirely ture, i don't like the "power trip" that can be easily succumb to - but for the most part, i repect cops as i think they do a necessary and riskjy job. When a cop gives me a ticket or pulls me over im not mean or have attitude, as they are just doing their job. Im nice because i don't want to screw with someones day for something they have to do, not because it helps my chances of getting off.

My gripe is not with the officer, it's with the state. They are the body that trains the officers and pays them to do a job that is far to easily considered a business and not a means fo keeping safety.

I will not vent on an officer that is doing his job, i will however fight a governing body that is not doing its job.

UDPride

I dont disagree with speed limits being set too low. I wholeheartedly agree that an extra 10mph wouldnt change a thing as far as mortality. That said, until the laws are changed we have to live with them unfortunately.