Clint's 944

Just an opinion and a little off topic but, do you think owning a radar detector gives people more "comfort" to speed consequently, causing them to be less aware of the road?

JediAgent

Maybe.
But doesn't speed above that which is "normal" seem to make you more aware of whats going on around you? Maybe thats the same as when you break the law you are more cautious or aware, but higher speed usually means higher risk no matter what vehicle you drive, which would also raise awareness. I say the "normal" because our norms have been set by highway engineers, whether correct or not in their thinking.

I say you and I because I beleive us to be rational responsible human beings. The trick is to take the idiots off the road. But that would reduce the driving population by a large percentage, which reduces the mobility of consumers, which causes less money to be spent on the whole... funny how it comes back down to whether or not people spend money.

Rich Sandor

I am sick of reading this: "You were speeding, be a man and pay the fine"

that is such utter bull****. The legal system exists in part so that we can barter a fair punishment for the offense commited. Even if you are guilty of speeding, why on earth would anyone voluntarily pay the set fine, when they could easily, successfully have it reduced and pay less.

Only someone with a kangaroo sized brain would "be a man" and blindly, unquestioningly, pay a traffic fine. In this world, you have to question everything, and be synical and critical of everything everyone does, including police officers AND the written law, because they are not perfect.

For example, in BC, by law, someone with a perfect driving record, no accidents or tickets, mature and proffessional, would get a $173cdn speeding ticket and $90 on top of that for the 3 insurance points for that ticket for one year. A young punk with 5 tickets in the last year and no respect for the police would get the exact same fine. In BC, and most states and provinces, you can dispute the fine amount, while still admiting guilt. Would it not make sense for the punk to pay the greater fine?

All you need to do is look up the ladder to major court cases with the similar charges against different defendants, and you'll see that although the charges may be the same, the punishments or fines are different in each case because the circumstances in each case are different.

Justice is blind, but it is not DEAF.

on a side note: Radar detectors. I have never owned one. In the two years that I've owned my 944 turbo, I've never had to pay any tickets for speeding in it. And believe you me, the car gets DRIVEN. The best defense against tickets is common sense, and the mk.1 eyeball.

Ron_H

I don't know how or why I ever drove without my V-1, now that I have it. I do NOT leave home without it. Rather than gawking all around searching for bears, I can rely on the V-1 to sniff them out. I still look around all the time though because the V-1 alone will not protect you from Smokey if he is hiding or pacing you. I also have a Bear Tracker which runs constantly. There are also low profile police cars which appear normal until you spot them from the rear with all the antennas. Can't spot them usually until they are on top of you.
The result of all this "awareness seeking" is that you will be more alert to what is going on around you which spells S A F E T Y, rather than poke along in a group of sheeple relying on the speed limit and the semi conscious state of you and those around you to keep you safe. That is why raising the speed limit tends to lower accidents. As stated, you will perceive a higher level of danger and act accordingly to stay alert. So long as you act within the limits of the roadway and the vehicle and other drivers around you if they exist, you will be operating more effectively. Think about it. Has adrenaline ever saved your skin? Of course. Police and emergency drivers know this, as do race drivers. Lose the cell phone, lose the day dreaming and the sight seeing, and be into what you are actually doing. Combine that mindset with a vehicle that is in superior mechanical condition and your knowledge of that car's limits and what should you expect? Novel concept eh? Taking personal responsibility for our actions instead of believing some parasitical automaton who claims ability to arbitrarily set standards for everyone else and expect them to be maintained without question uniformly. Are you the same intellectually as your neighbor? So you think we all perform uniformly given similar situations or circumstances?Some people thrive on uniformity. Airheads. They question nothing. Stay in the right lane, please and stay out of my way and my life.

We have never learned that prohibition serves no useful purpose save the needs of the prohibitors. To them prohibition is a cash cow. Witness the prohibition of liquor which produced wondrous numbers of criminals for the prohibitors to prosecute, and the desire to violate the prohibition. The same is going on now with the "war on drugs" which is criminalizing vast amounts of the population, while protecting the rights of a few vested interests of wealthy pharmaceutical companyies who fear use of natural non-patentable drugs will destroy their stranglehold on treatment of otherwise preventable diseases. What a buch of crap. Illegally instituted speed laws accomplish the same end:
criminalization and social ostracism of a few at the whim of many. Exactly what the Bill of Rights was written to prevent. Traffic safety, automobile development, and evolution of our abilities all suffer as a result. We are penalized for being more capable. What's wrong with that picture?

Watch a road race or a rallye. All the evils we are told will come into play as speed increases don't appear. Are the participants mangling cars every few seconds? Are wrecks the norm or the exception? And everyone is following too closely right? Sure accidents happen. And they will always happen on the road also. But racers are operating at a higher level of awareness and performing what we are told is utterly unthinkable every minute of the race. And surviving unscathed in cars much like ours. In fact ours are developed from those cars. Do the parasites make sense? I don't think so.

UDPride

I couldnt disagree more. The difference between you and me is I view speeding as an act worth punishing, you view speeding as an act worth saving your *** on. Look, driving is a privilege, not a right. Anytime people want to start taking the bus, no one is stopping us. Every time you get into your car, you are voluntarily agreeing to the terms and conditions set forth in the laws. You may not like the laws. Hell, I may not even like the laws. But dont whine about the laws while doing nothing about it. If you dont like cops nailing speeders, protest and write your congressman. Take the bus as a sign of protest. But dont get in your car every day and act like the world owes you something because you got ticketed for 10mph over the limit.

If you want the laws changed, you still need to abide by the current laws until they are. It just really falls on my deaf ear when people start bitching and moaning about speeding tickets because the NANOSECOND someone was 1MPH over the speed limit and they ran over your 2yr old daughter and killed her, youd be at a lawyers office suiing the guy for $60M because of speeding and reckless driving and I gaurantee you, youd bring up the fact that he was "driving like a bat out of hell and speeding".

Its human nature to only caretake in the laws that our advantageous to our lifestyles. There are a LOT of laws I dont like. I may not even like the 65MPH speed limit on Ohio highways. But because I or you dont like the law or think its fair, doesnt mean we still arent oglibated to obide by it. Agreeing with laws and obiding by them are two completely separate entities. You have to change the laws. And thats where folks energy must be placed. For every Rosa Parks who broke the law, there were 500 people who demonstrated on the steps of Montgomery Alabama courthouse. Thata how things get done. Thats how government listens when the people are unhappy with laws. If you think fighting tickets in traffic court is doing absolutely anything to transform vehicular law and procedure, you are giving government way too much credit.

Besides, why fight a $125 speeding ticket if it means you have to prepare five hours for it. At a measly $35/hr of your free time (which is practically nothing), you end up costing yourself more than had you just paid it moved on with life. I realize court is there for both sides to butt heads and reach a compromise. I udnerstand the process. Jesus, I even had my *** IN the process. Cant say I liked it much. The only good thing that court serves is to make lawyers and judges more money. And I hate lawyers and judges. Id rather pay a fine than to give a lawyer or judge even the satisfaction of knowing they got richer because of me. But we're talking Mickey Mouse speeding tickets here, not 20-to-life.

I dont think theres anything wrong with being virtuous either. If you know you are gulty, know you were speeding, know you broke the law, know your *** was grassed, fessing up and paying a fine is not always stupid in my book.

I wonder if we'd be saying the same thing if someone kidnapped your daughter and they got caught, but pleaded innocent. My guess is youd be saying "why doesnt he just fess up". Maybe he isnt fessing up because he thinks the kidnapping laws are total crap. Just something to ponder.

Rich Sandor

Chris, lets say we both get a $175 ticket on a barren stretch of highway for going 10mph over the limit.

This is the difference between you and me:

A: I admit guilt, but dispute the fine amount based on my driving record and the circumstances at the time. I get it knocked down to $86.

B: You dutifully admit guilt and pay the full amount of $175.

I saved $89 and instead of feeling "virtuous" for admiting my "sins" I instead feel "on top of the world" for being able to use the justice system to my advantage. (instead of the other way around!) Your arguement of spending 5 hours to prepare is moot. It has never taken me that long to prepare a dispute.

I'm not talking about denial of breaking the law (which I think is totally wrong) - I'm talking about compromising on the punishment. Try to differentiate between the two!

a: I don't whine about low speed limits. I know they are such because other people drive piece of **** cars and have no lane discipline or high speed driving skills. I wouldn't change those laws if I could.

b: I DON'T act like the world owes me anything - please don't say that I do! That offends me. I work hard intellectually to try and make things work out to my advantage. For some people, it's easier just to let the system dictate thier lives... That fine for them... but don't try to tell me to act the same way!

c: I'm not trying to change the law. I'm just saying, that for maybe that 1 time every 3 years that I **** up, the justice system helps ME out and doesn't bend me over big time for making a small mistake. It's called "plea bargaining" and you can do it in traffic court just like in a murder trial!

Anyways.. I trust you didn't mean to offend me, and even if my writing seems harsh, I don't mean to offend you either. Probably just a misunderstanding.

UDPride

Rich, you are still my bro.

I didnt mean to offend. I was more speaking in generic terms and didnt intentionally intend to make you the example.

I think I would probably pay the $175 and feel better about it than fighting it and paying $86. Thats just me. Ive always been odd though so maybe I have a sick warped demented mind. To me, knowing it cost me more in my wallet would register in my head that "hey, I dont need speeding tickets. Slow down Chris." I dont think I personally would feel on top of the world for beating the ticket unless I knew

a) I was only going maybe 3-4mph over
b) the cop was lying
c) I wasnt speeding at all
d) there was an emergency necessitating the speeding

Were I really going 10mph over and he clocked me at 10mph over, then even in Gods eyes or the Almighty, or Jahoba, or whomever, Im guilty whether or not the court ends up saying so. So Id feel better just paying the fine, evening the score in life and moving forward. I guess Id just send it in because if someone was speeding and ran over my dog on the sidewalk, Id want them to just say "hey man, you are right, I goofed" rather than plead it down to a 3rd class misdemeanor. I know the odds of that are slim because even serial killers plead not guilty, so my virtuosity will probably never be redeemed from others. Still, my conscience would feel better just paying the ticket. And knowing how much I hate lawyers and judges, just knowing I didnt make them any richer or more flattering or just giving them the satisfaction by staying away from them altogether would be my "victory" so to speak, akin to your fighting it out and getting it reduced.

Rich Sandor

LOL.. okay THAT I can understand.

(Just be sure Michelle JD doesn't catch that one!)

Ron_H

We must abide by laws we don't like or feel are fair?

Where would America be today if that was true? Where would oppressed groups be today in America if that was true? Why is there a Supreme Court? Or a deliberate attempt to balance power designed into the Constitution? All laws are just and fair? All laws can't be changed, either by civil disobedience or legislative/judicial action? Crap! There wouldn't be an America without civil disobedience. Period.

The Bill of Rights is designed to protect the individual or minority from the will of the majority or mob rule. Shall we also toss it out because someone passed a law that we can't change or protest or violate? What if the law is meant to prey on natural, safe behavior in favor of the greedy, viscious and oppressive authorities abusing power entrusted to them? Because a law exists doesn't grant it protection from challenge on legal or moral grounds. Blind allegiance to authority, eh? Sounds like childlike irresponsibility to me. George Washington was regarded as a criminal who would have been hanged on the spot by the British; I guess we should apologize, 'fess up, and hand the country back to the UK, eh? Sheesh!

Tell Martin Luther King about laws and violating them. Tell the people who were legally prohibited from attending school in the South about violating them.
Tell the oppressed women of Afghanistan about laws and violating them. And while you're at it, our soldiers dying to change oppressive regimes in other parts of the world who make laws that are ill founded. And tell the women in America who couldn't vote about laws and violating them. The law is the law, right? Wrong! We make 'em and we can change 'em. Law doesn't take the place of common sense. Ask God about that.

JediAgent

I agree with some of what you say, as (i think) UDPride and Rich do. We all agree with small parts of what eachother says.

We can never assume we are in the right or the majority if we are "breaking the law" - should a rapist or murderer be allowed to not abide by the law because they don't agree we would be in deep trouble.

The real question is not how we can avoid cops, escape fines, or otherwise flee the axe of the executioner - the real question is how we can change that. Come up with a real plan, do what we can to implement it, whether that be writing a letter or lobbying your next door neighbor that is a cop/judge/milkman/whatever. There should be something done. I could write a letter... just a thought...

Until then i will use my legal right to a trial by judge/jury to contest my guilt.

UDPride

Read anything from Dr. King and his stance was clear : civil disobediance was the tool for change, not setting fires, or rioting, or breaking the law until the law is changed. Dr Kings message was heard because he filled the Washington DC monument reflection pool area with hundreds of thousands of people protesting ambitiously but peacefully. Thats what promotes change because you give the other side a chance to listen. If all you do is wield a cicle, they tune you out. Simply breaking the law because you feel the law is unlawful is well, unlawful. Again, for every Rosa Parks there were 1000 others who picketed their courthouses churches schools and staehouses.

I think we all agree that some laws are stupid. But change the law, dont change the way you approach to being a law-abiding citizen. You cant tote a gun under your coat just because you think your state should have a concealed carry law and doesnt and they are stepping on your rights. Its the law thats the problem and since we are governed by the people, for the people, theres really no one to blame but ourselves when the laws are such that most of us disagree with them. Quit voting for people who dont represent you and insist on keeping the speed limits at 55mph or whatever. I bet 85% of us dont even know who our congressperson is. Heck, even I have to stop and think.

I think we agree more than we disagree though that some stuff just dont make sense. Ive said my peace. I need to move on to other threads and see whats cookin.