anyone has parted or is parting a car I NEED YOUR HELP
09-14-2004, 05:06 PM
#16
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Tony
http://www.sd455.com/transamprod.htm
I was thinking SD-455 Formula. I was wrong.
XS
try www.paddockparts.com or year one, or.... for all your first generation needs. You name it and it is available.
Still have the 68 350 convertible I bought in HS in 76.
http://www.sd455.com/transamprod.htm
I was thinking SD-455 Formula. I was wrong.
XS
try www.paddockparts.com or year one, or.... for all your first generation needs. You name it and it is available.
Still have the 68 350 convertible I bought in HS in 76.
09-14-2004, 05:27 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by Legoland951
VIN swap is a FEDERAL OFFENSE and it doesn't matter how we feel about it, it will land you in federal prison if you are caught. None of the 944s are worth that risk. Lien sale the car and it takes 31 days in Ca. PM me if you need more details.
I believe Vermont is the place to go to buy and sell cars without titles. But it's not worth the cost and hassle involved.
Seeing that he bought a parts car/fixer upper, I'd be willing to bet that a couple hundred bucks is a lot of money for him.
In Maine, IIRC, cars over ten years old don't get titles. Bill of sale only, IIRC. Obviously aimed at the fact that old beaters aren't worth much, but turns interesting when you bring classic cars into the picture!
I wonder if anyone can actually produce reference (section/code) to laws regarding swapping VI -- err, *bodies*. People always blindly spit out things like what you wrote, but I have never encountered anyone who actually read what the laws are, or how they actually are practiced (in a courtroom) in real life. Kind of one of those things that just float around the land of automobilia. Most laws regarding automobiles, as we know, are intended for late-model cars, being that they are the majority of what is on the road, of significant value, and the subject to most illegal activities. I can't honestly see a 18-19 year old kid going to a federal prison because he bought two junk cars and switched the VIN plates.
Using our wonderful Hella, Bosch, and Cibie E-code headlamps are also a "federal offense", or so I've been told!
Either way, I wouldn't swap VINs, either. I just wouldn't get up in arms about it if someone did. But yes, in the end, I would always opt for "keeping my nose clean".
09-14-2004, 05:37 PM
#18
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Problem is if he swaps bodies, he still has parts from a vehicle with no real origin. Meaning the person he bought the car from could say his car is missing. then it hits the fan and what Lego says comes true.
There was a case some years ago about federal agents finding a few pot seeds in the garbage can of a yacht and seizing the yacht. any vehicle used for an illegal purpose..... the land owner that rents his land to a junkyard that has a stolen transmission in a car was liable. the law which i believe was part of the RICO laws has not been sorted out in the 20 years since enactment.
There was a case some years ago about federal agents finding a few pot seeds in the garbage can of a yacht and seizing the yacht. any vehicle used for an illegal purpose..... the land owner that rents his land to a junkyard that has a stolen transmission in a car was liable. the law which i believe was part of the RICO laws has not been sorted out in the 20 years since enactment.
09-14-2004, 05:46 PM
#19
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Here is some reading, pertaining to VIN issues:
18 USCS § 2321
TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I. CRIMES
CHAPTER 113. STOLEN PROPERTY
18 USCS § 2321 (2003)
§ 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts
(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
107 A.L.R.5th 567
SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. Some states, however, do not require any culpable mental state on the part of the defendant when selling a vehicle or vehicle part with a removed or altered VIN.
For example, in State v. Smith, 972 S.W.2d 476, 107 A.L.R.5th 791 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1998), the defendant sold a vehicle that was subsequently found to have an altered VIN. The defendant claimed the state was required to establish that he had knowledge of the VIN alteration at the time the sale occurred. The court held that while knowledge was required for possessing a vehicle with an altered VIN, the statute's plain language indicated that knowledge was not required when selling a vehicle with an altered VIN.
Most state courts held that knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is required before the defendant can be convicted of altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10[a] ). However, a few courts have concluded that from a plain reading of the applicable statute, knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is not required when altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10 ). Courts singled out a number of particular circumstances as tending to establish knowledge of an altered or removed VIN on the part of the defendant. For instance, knowledge was found to exist where there is physical evidence of the VIN alteration as well as proof the defendant tried to sell the vehicle or had possession of the vehicle for a long period of time ( § 10[c] ). Knowledge was also proved by evidence that the defendant was warned of a missing or altered VIN and did not correct the defect or where the police found evidence of a "chop shop" and other dismantled vehicle parts in the defendant's possession ( § 10[c] ). To the contrary, courts found the defendant did not have knowledge of an altered or removed VIN where, although there was evidence of possession or sale of the vehicle, there was no direct or physical evidence the defendant altered or removed the VIN ( § 10[d] ). Knowledge was also not proved where the defendant merely leased a building to a person operating a "chop shop" and did not know what was happening inside the building ( § 10[d] ).
Along with the culpable mental state requirement, courts also addressed the criminal conduct involved in altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. For example, state courts found that a VIN was altered or removed even if the concealed VIN was not removed or the vehicle bore an additional VIN not affixed by the manufacturer ( § 12[a] ).
In State v. Halczyszak, 1990 WL 32605 (Ohio Ct. App. 8th Dist. Cuyahoga County 1990), the court upheld a conviction under Ohio Rev. Code Ann. § 4549.62(D)(1), after it was found that salvage yard owners knowingly possessed a vehicle in which the VIN was altered. The court found that the case record revealed that the owners knowingly and purposely altered the body of an older vehicle by attaching the VIN from a newer vehicle. In addition, one of the salvage yard owners further demonstrated this knowledge by stating to the police that she believed they could transfer the VIN from one car to another.
18 USCS § 2321
TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I. CRIMES
CHAPTER 113. STOLEN PROPERTY
18 USCS § 2321 (2003)
§ 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts
(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
107 A.L.R.5th 567
SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. Some states, however, do not require any culpable mental state on the part of the defendant when selling a vehicle or vehicle part with a removed or altered VIN.
For example, in State v. Smith, 972 S.W.2d 476, 107 A.L.R.5th 791 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1998), the defendant sold a vehicle that was subsequently found to have an altered VIN. The defendant claimed the state was required to establish that he had knowledge of the VIN alteration at the time the sale occurred. The court held that while knowledge was required for possessing a vehicle with an altered VIN, the statute's plain language indicated that knowledge was not required when selling a vehicle with an altered VIN.
Most state courts held that knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is required before the defendant can be convicted of altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10[a] ). However, a few courts have concluded that from a plain reading of the applicable statute, knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is not required when altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10 ). Courts singled out a number of particular circumstances as tending to establish knowledge of an altered or removed VIN on the part of the defendant. For instance, knowledge was found to exist where there is physical evidence of the VIN alteration as well as proof the defendant tried to sell the vehicle or had possession of the vehicle for a long period of time ( § 10[c] ). Knowledge was also proved by evidence that the defendant was warned of a missing or altered VIN and did not correct the defect or where the police found evidence of a "chop shop" and other dismantled vehicle parts in the defendant's possession ( § 10[c] ). To the contrary, courts found the defendant did not have knowledge of an altered or removed VIN where, although there was evidence of possession or sale of the vehicle, there was no direct or physical evidence the defendant altered or removed the VIN ( § 10[d] ). Knowledge was also not proved where the defendant merely leased a building to a person operating a "chop shop" and did not know what was happening inside the building ( § 10[d] ).
Along with the culpable mental state requirement, courts also addressed the criminal conduct involved in altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. For example, state courts found that a VIN was altered or removed even if the concealed VIN was not removed or the vehicle bore an additional VIN not affixed by the manufacturer ( § 12[a] ).
In State v. Halczyszak, 1990 WL 32605 (Ohio Ct. App. 8th Dist. Cuyahoga County 1990), the court upheld a conviction under Ohio Rev. Code Ann. § 4549.62(D)(1), after it was found that salvage yard owners knowingly possessed a vehicle in which the VIN was altered. The court found that the case record revealed that the owners knowingly and purposely altered the body of an older vehicle by attaching the VIN from a newer vehicle. In addition, one of the salvage yard owners further demonstrated this knowledge by stating to the police that she believed they could transfer the VIN from one car to another.
09-14-2004, 07:51 PM
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Try a title service like International Title Service. http://www.its-titles.com/ Its legal and basically what you are doing is signing an affidavit saying you did not steal the car or its parts and take all responsibility if someone else claims ownership of the car. You fill out the form and send the money and they send you a registration/title that you then put yourself down as the buyer.
I have done it twice on cars that had title messes much like yours. You may lose the carfax history so if thats not a concern then this may be a good option for you.
Much more legal than switching out the VIN tag.
I have done it twice on cars that had title messes much like yours. You may lose the carfax history so if thats not a concern then this may be a good option for you.
Much more legal than switching out the VIN tag.
09-14-2004, 08:41 PM
#24
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Tony, I don't mean for him to title it here in CA. There are lien sale procedure for every state. Also, there are many VIN tags on the car so a "body swap" would not be possible for our cars while its possible for pre 60s vehicles. in the 85.5 cars, there are partial VIN stamped in the back of the car that you would have replace the back half of the car for. The front firewall would require you to replace the front of the car while the engine, under dash, and other part of the back of the car has partial VIN which has to be decoded in some cases. I used to hang out with LAPD auto detectives and police impound personnel so I know how extensive the search for a VIN is for an impounded car (lift the body off the frame of a 1978 olds worth $200). In the 87+ cars, there are VIN stickers on just about every single body panel (fenders, hood, quarter panels, doors, etc) so a "body swap" again is not possible legally. As for the environmental impact fee of $300, it was struck down after a major class action lawsuit and the state had to REFUND all previously collected env. impact fees. Darn DMV eats it for once for trying to screw people like they always do.
09-14-2004, 09:20 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by Legoland951
Tony, I don't mean for him to title it here in CA. There are lien sale procedure for every state. Also, there are many VIN tags on the car so a "body swap" would not be possible for our cars while its possible for pre 60s vehicles. in the 85.5 cars, there are partial VIN stamped in the back of the car that you would have replace the back half of the car for. The front firewall would require you to replace the front of the car while the engine, under dash, and other part of the back of the car has partial VIN which has to be decoded in some cases. I used to hang out with LAPD auto detectives and police impound personnel so I know how extensive the search for a VIN is for an impounded car (lift the body off the frame of a 1978 olds worth $200). In the 87+ cars, there are VIN stickers on just about every single body panel (fenders, hood, quarter panels, doors, etc) so a "body swap" again is not possible legally. As for the environmental impact fee of $300, it was struck down after a major class action lawsuit and the state had to REFUND all previously collected env. impact fees. Darn DMV eats it for once for trying to screw people like they always do.
09-14-2004, 09:24 PM
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A car without a title is a collection of parts that cannot be retitled or registered.
A car without a title or a proper VIN is considered a stolen car.
Sounds like you have a parts car.
A car without a title or a proper VIN is considered a stolen car.
Sounds like you have a parts car.
09-14-2004, 10:24 PM
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well thanks for all the info i found the guy today going to old papers looking for the title, and emailed him and he said if he went to get a copy of the title he would have to pay property tax on it and it would be $430 so if i cant find the title thats what it will cost me. does anyone know what the tax is in VA. ? and i have spent to much time and money on this car, i will never let it be a parts car, till i kill it and cant put it back together, but i dont think that will ever happen.
09-14-2004, 10:33 PM
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I thought VA did away with the "car tax" several years ago. 
Wasn't that the governor's biggest platform promise, to end the car tax? Well there are plenty of VA people on here...
Funny, I would be surprised if VA would charge that much money for the guy to get a duplicate title for a car he sold a year ago. You probably want to call the VA DMV, explain the situation to them, and get a straight answer.
At worst, a lot of people have eaten a lot more than $430 for useless things. Small price to pay to stay legal and get the car safely in your possession. Hey, maybe if you keep looking you will find the title...
Wasn't that the governor's biggest platform promise, to end the car tax? Well there are plenty of VA people on here...Funny, I would be surprised if VA would charge that much money for the guy to get a duplicate title for a car he sold a year ago. You probably want to call the VA DMV, explain the situation to them, and get a straight answer.
At worst, a lot of people have eaten a lot more than $430 for useless things. Small price to pay to stay legal and get the car safely in your possession. Hey, maybe if you keep looking you will find the title...
09-14-2004, 10:53 PM
#30
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Your sig says you're in Ohio, right?
http://bmv.ohio.gov/tltg_faq.html
http://bmv.ohio.gov/tltg_faq.html
Q12:
I purchased a vehicle in-state or out-of-state and the seller did not provide me with a title. I have a bill of sale, what do I do?
A12:
Contact the title division by letter. Compose a sworn notarized statement as to the facts pertaining to the purchase of the vehicle. Next, obtain a completed Out of State Inspection form. Make a copy of all papers that you have on the vehicle from the seller and mail to the Ohio BMV, Title Division, P.O. Box 16520, Columbus, Ohio 43216-6520. The inquiry will be reviewed by the Title Section and if approved, a letter of authorization will be issued.
I purchased a vehicle in-state or out-of-state and the seller did not provide me with a title. I have a bill of sale, what do I do?
A12:
Contact the title division by letter. Compose a sworn notarized statement as to the facts pertaining to the purchase of the vehicle. Next, obtain a completed Out of State Inspection form. Make a copy of all papers that you have on the vehicle from the seller and mail to the Ohio BMV, Title Division, P.O. Box 16520, Columbus, Ohio 43216-6520. The inquiry will be reviewed by the Title Section and if approved, a letter of authorization will be issued.