Bhj0887

I must have misunderstood (or am I). I thought this car was going to be strickly a race car, therefor 12.5 compression could be ideal if they sell race gas around you. I believe 100-103 octane would be nessacary. An upgraded valve train would be in order if the compression was raised that high and it had a more aggressive cam. I think just the raised compression, bore and valve train should put you around 160+ to the wheels.

[quote]interesting.
boring out the cylinders?
I was told that would be dangerous.
and with higher compression pistons?


12.5 WOW!!!
how much of a horsepower increase would the compression be?[quote/]

It's only dangerous if you bore the cylinder walls too thin. And IIRC our sleeves are plenty thick for some extra displacement. Raising the compression has more of a danger or detonating or pinging than anything else.

Increasing the bore .010 will give about 5 hp and ~5 lbs of torque. Increasing compression gives about the same for every point raised.
A good cam can get you an extra 15 hp.
Intakes will mostly give throttle response (which isn't bad but doesn't really help)
A properly sized exhaust may get you 5 hp if your lucky

L8 APEKS

No worries. At least you can admit when you're wrong. But still...your comments were charged with a hefty portion of attitude and just a dash of "diva". Trust me...I could retort each of your statements. It ain't worth my time. No need for that crap here. Keep the childish attitudes on the Honda boards please (no offense to Honda owners who can tell the difference between a lug nut and a muffler!)

Matt H

Yep, this is the place. Jon is the only person getting any real increases from the NA engine. He's the only one who has done any real development work on them.

Actually, a list member here has built a 300HP at the wheels 944NA. If you have the money to spend you can buid these motors to whatever you want.

You will not come even remotely close to 190 at the wheels with basic bolt ons. If you dont believe me call JME and ask him what he charges to put together a motor that will put that out.

There is HP to be gained but this is not the car to do it with. *I am now donning the flame suit*

The NA owners as a whole do not have/are not willing to spend the money for the R&D. If they were there would be better parts available OR JME would sell more of his parts that actually do work.

Sean, George is not an *******, I know him personally to be anything but. He can be a sarcastic SOB but that is why we love him :>)

And as to the need for lots of power, you are incorrect, the 944NA is really no longer competitive in class. I guess it *could* be with a world class driver and a whole lot of really good luck.

Anders - I can give you the name of someone else to talk to if you like but I wont here as he doesnt like people to discuss his engines here. PM me, if you would like the information.
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Matt H

It's only dangerous if you bore the cylinder walls too thin. And IIRC our sleeves are plenty thick for some extra displacement. Raising the compression has more of a danger or detonating or pinging than anything else.

Yes, they are. You could go to 2.8L by using 3.0L crank and custom pistons. 2.7L like the factory did with the 89NAs. 3.0L by using a stock 2.5L block or a 3.0L and just do the swap (far cheaper). BTW - sleeves should be cylinder walls.


Increasing the bore .010 will give about 5 hp and ~5 lbs of torque. Increasing compression gives about the same for every point raised.

While this might be true the cylinder walls are nickasil and it would not be wise to go .010 (this isnt a Ford). You should go to a standard Porsche piston size (there are oversized pistons available) OR go to a sleeved block and JE, et al piston setup.

Further for the cost of the overbore you might as well throw the block in the trash put a S2 or 968 engine in it, sell the 2.5 and have a cheaper more reliable upgrade.
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L8 APEKS

Nope. No way, no how.

Geo says it's not possible to come close to 190 WHP. We must accept that as fact and move on.

Sorry, couldn't resist...I re-read his original flame on my post and good grief...this guy needs a big hug!

Anyhow...thanks for a useful post Matt.

Matt H

Sean the 300HP motor cost over 20K. It can be done but money is the issue.
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M758

I remember reading about GT4 class 944 NA that puts out somewhere near 300 hp. Car is forsale and owner want somethig like 40k.

Is it possible.
Well to PCA rules enlarge motor to 2.8L (not sure bore or stoke)
Put a 16v head on it. My guess is that you would be closer to 200 hp (flywheel) with that number. Then being the real work over. If given the money and time to develop? Maybe. Not very common or very cost effectice, but if you want to run at the front in GT4 with a 944 then it is the only way.


Jon Milledge does advertise 183 flyhweel hp ITS legal motors. Even these "near stock" motor take alot of engineering to assemble just right!

There a very few "simple" ways to get big hp. Losts of custom parts and engineering required along with the time and $$$$$$$$$ to make it happen.

Geo

Uh, nope. Reread. Never said that. In fact, I'm usually the one who defends the fact that it is possible to make more power with these engines, but it requires money. Lots of money. In that, we are not in disagreement.

Geo

Actually Matt, you're incorrect here. The factory used to produce 0.5mm and 1.0mm overbore pistons. That translates to 0.020" and 0.040" overbore. A 0.010" overbore would be virtually nothing.

L8 APEKS

Geo

I think the thing I didn't make very clear in my response to URIN is that it is that simple and it's not. Yes indeed, it's possible to make lots of power. The problem is there aren't that many folks around who know how with these engines. Almost nobody messes with the NA.

BINGO! URIN and I are in agreement about the fact it can be done (those of you who have been around a while will know I've always said this). But, it's not simple as you said. Milledge has proven it can be done. Show me anyone making the kind of power he has with a stock internals engine (only balancing allowed).

My understanding is that it's all in the head, but this should come as no surprice since that is usually where you make any real power in any engine (that and cams, which must be stock in IT). From what I understand, Jon has done some extensive flow bench testing on 944 heads and found something there. This is really interesting because in IT we are only allowed to port match within 1" of the manifold mounting surface and valve cuts must be within factory specs so there isn't a lot to work with. I'd guess he found a very favorable combination of casting and valve cut angles, but that is pure speculation. Reproducing his results would be a matter of A) luck, or B) expensive testing and retesting.

Geo

URIN, if you are going to quote me, please use the whole quote. You are quoting me out of context and that is just not right.

I said:

"For one thing you need to know what your competition is. For me to be a consistent winner in SCCA ITS I would need about 190 hp to the wheels. Aint' gonna happen. "

I will 110% stand on that statement. If you can find someone who can deliver 190 hp to the wheels in an IT legal 2.5 liter SOHC 944 race engine I will give you my next month's salaray x 110%. Jon Milledge delivers 185hp at the crank in an IT legal engine and NOBODY else even comes close.

So, you see it's important to quote in context.

L8 APEKS

The original poster is not in the USA. I don't think he's concerned with SCCA rules.

I'll say again what I was originally flamed for...
We can't be of too much detailed help referring him to local US SCCA racers for suggestions if his "racing" has completely different rules and regulations, which is why I said that to begin with.

It's a big difference not knowing if his racing is limited to a "sealed motor," or if they allow aftermarket forced induction. Worlds apart...in both the advice we can give, and the results he will get.

Geo

Let's review, shall we?

First of all, I mentioned the fact he was outside the US. For another, my mention of SCCA was in relation to comparison with your competition.
I wrote:

"For one thing you need to know what your competition is. For me to be a consistent winner in SCCA ITS I would need about 190 hp to the wheels. Aint' gonna happen. Spec classes are spec classes and don't factor in. PCA racing? Well, considering he's in Europe, I think we can assume it's not PCA racing. How much power he'll need will depend upon the rest of the class.

I agreed with you that you need to know the rules for the series before being too specific.

I also said relative to there being no secret to making power with an NA engine:

"Yeah, but there seems to be only one person able to extract any worth talking about for a NA 2.5 944 (Milledge)."

I don't see a flame there.

I agree and agreed with in the first place. See above.

He did say this was for a NA engine in his first post. I certainly agree that for specifics, the rule book is needed. In responce to your comment about needing to know what can be done I wrote:

"I think the point was to look for sources who know their stuff. That leaves Milledge."

I still stand by that.

At this point, this thread has become worthless for Sweanders. He was looking for resources and now it has come down to bickering about little stuff.

L8 APEKS

lol...then stop bickering.

As far as J Milledge...I agree he knows his stuff. But let's not be *too* narrow minded. I'm sure there are other 944 guys out there who know their stuff, especially since we are talking on an international level. Those Europeans can be pretty crazy.

The Euro VW guys are always 2 steps further toward the "extreme" than the US guys. I wouldn't be surprised if the situation was similar with 944's. We seem less likely to be willing to drive around with cams of 296-306 deg of duration than they do. lol. Things like that.

Are there any popular tuners or race companies familiar with 944's overseas he should maybe look at?