Rich Sandor

That's IF you get 8 runs. plus those 8 runs could be 35 second runs whereas the Metro ones may be 50 second runs - so it's not as clear cut as you might think.

Personally, if it is a PORSCHE CLUB event, other makes should be DISCOURAGED from coming out so that the PORSCHES can have more runs.

There is the SCCA for other makes, this is the PORSCHE club. I don't join the PORSCHE CLUB to hang out with civics and mustangs!!!! If I want to do that I'll join the SCCA!!!

-All PCA members should be charged the same, regardless of what year Porsche they drive.

-Non-members with P-cars, or members with non-pcars should be allowed but at a premium.

-Non-members with non-pcars should check out the SCCA or other car clubs.

That is my take, and I think it's fair to everyone!!

adrial

Zoltan,

That was ONE event where we got 4 runs and yes I will complain to metro as well.

NNJR isn't the best region in the country despite what you may think.

Commendable that they dont charge non-members more, why?? We pay our $42 a year, cheaper autox's than those that dont pay $42 a year should be a part of that.

Here is what howard is sending out to anybody that complains...(both Yarin and I got the exact same response).

I wouldn't post this email unless it was a generic response.

"Adrial, I'm sorry you aren't happy with the new fee increase (who would be
happy?), but let me try to explain.

The autocross program has lost a little money each year. So has the Club,
losing money each year in its overall operations, primarily because of the
expense of publishing and distributing PORSCHEFORUS. Obviously, we cannot go on
losing money indefinitely. So, the decision was made to increase fees for both
AX and D.E. to help subsidize our magazine, the backbone of the Club.

Raising the fee for only non-Porsches would not have raised enough money,
especially since I plan on limiting their numbers if an event is
oversubscribed. You might have noticed that there is a discount for STOCK
Porsches 20 years old or older. There have been very few cars that would have
qualified for this discount last year. The whole idea is to try and get older
Porsches out of the garage. When was the last time you saw a stock 356 at an
autocross?

I hope this makes some sense to you, Adrial. Even if we disagree, I thank you
for taking the time to e-mail me and giving me the opportunity to explain the
reasoning for the increase. See you on the 18th?

Howard"


Oh, and as for trophies...lose em. I could care less. I have a pile of them by now; they're meaningless.

J Berk

Sounds odd to me ( and YES I am a NNJR member)....I know that I joined so that when I was comfortable w/ the mechanical condition of my car I could AX it....but in the meanwhile I have become the father of twins....so no AX yet...since I got my membership.

I imagine that there are many more members than there are members who AX/DE.....so the guys who have time to drive are subsidizing us non-drivers getting the club magazine?

It would almost seem more appropriate to charge a small subscription fee for the mag.....so that ALL members cover the cost...not just those who go to the AX/DE events!!!!!!!!

Just my 2cents....

Joe

PS - Guess I am just paying for the mag anyway...as it appears I could have AX'd for the same cost as a member anyway!

Ken

That's really not true. At the Meadowlands, the courses typically run around a full minute and about one mile long. The only place it was down in the 35second range was when we ran at the PNC Bank arts center because the lot was so small(They still managed to get in a 40-45second course). So the majority of the time there's 120cars running, with 8 1 min/mile runs and we're out by 5pm. I'd say that's well run.

Dave

As Zoltan pointed out there has not been a rate increase in a number of years, the possibility of an increase has been brought up every year for the last few years. Several years ago I spoke with Scott (Howard's predecessor as AX chair) about the then looming price increase. I found out that one of the biggest expenses is the lot rental fee itself, this fee does not change based on the number of cars and is (@ meadowlands anyway) for the full day weather were out of there at noon or at 4-5 PM. More cars equals less rent per car. X class mares up 30 to 50% of the cars at most events, a fee increase for them will drive them off to other events; don't forget there are half a dozen groups organizing AX in the area and many weekends there are a couple events for these diehard x-classers to choose from (many autox every weekend at whatever event they can).
Run off the non-members and the members price goes up, a price increase for non-members is not the answer.
I spoke with Howard last fall, he didn't want to increase fees trust me on this. Ken mentioned the 911 change being a factor, '83 was the last year of the SC as it was replaced with the Carrera in '84. The classes for the SC, the earlier 911s, the 914, and the 356 all have little to no participation. I haven't seen a 356 more than a handful of times in the last few years (2 show up occasionally, 1 is stock, 1 is not) Don G often runs unopposed in his 914-4 and Howard get's little competition in his 911S. OTOH, there are often more than a dozen 996s and at least as many Boxsters,
The events are already biased toward members, there are >40 stock classes for Porsches (many with 0-3 vehicles) 9 improved classes and 9 modified classes, there are only 2 classes for non-Porsches (Ladies and open). Over the last few years more Porsches are showing up and the number of x-class participants is going to be limited in order to make room for the Porsches. Howard's goal is to bring out more of the early cars to fill out their classes and he is capping the events at 125 cars by limiting the number of non-Porsches. How much more Porsche bias do you want? A higher fee for X-class would be like telling them "we don't really want you here" at registration.
An aquaintence of mine is a DE instructor with BMWCCA, when he found out I was somewhat active with PCA events he asked me what was up with limiting the DEs to members only, he told me that his club (like most others) welcomed all comers and that PCA was seen as a bunch of elitist snobs because of their member only/Porsche only rule. I explained that PCA-NNJ is already turning away members due to the number of applications for the events and the club doesn't feel it would be fair to take non-members while turning away members. I think I changed his view of PCA, maybe he's even a little envious of the level of participation within PCA .
For the past few uears autox has stayed near the break even point by drawing more participants to offset price increases, we have reached the limit of participants that can be handled (as efficient as we are) without decreasing the number of runs. For now we need the participation of non-members to keep the autox program going without a larger price increase, we can't force out X-class perticipants.

adrial

A price increase to $35 would not drive away non-members IMO.

As it was said earlier, M-club charges $40 for non-members.

Does $5 really make that much a difference in someone's mind in deciding if they'll go to an autox or not? I mean please, we find a part on these cars thats $5 and we celebrate.

Then why am I complaining? Because I disagree with who the rate increase was applied to AND with the decrease to STOCK cars 83 and earlier. What if I have a '72 911 that I dropped a 3.6L into, do I have to pay more because I "obviously" have more $$ or would pay more $$ than the guy with the stock '72?

Dave

The price structure was intended as a $5 increase for everyone, on top of that there is a $10 discount intended to attract cars that run in classes that are currently run with just 1 or two cars. NNJ is not onto bumping cars into a higher class just because only a couple cars run in those classes. I'm not sure if you're missing the point that non-members will be paying $5 more, along with members running in the popular classes.
your example doesn't work because it misses the point. The class for a stock '72 911 usually runs with less than 3 cars, we want to attract more cars in this class. The 3.6 conversion in your example would run in M2, one of the largest and most competitive classes, there is no need to attract more of them if the goal is fun for all.

Z-man

I think a few people here need to start driving their cars.... it's been a long winter, and it seems that the testosterone build-up is causing some grumblings...
That's right!! I think you need to sit down with your brother and explain this to him!! Perhaps to help you offset YOUR increase Adrial, you should charge your bro $5 for running YOUR car in these events!

As a member of NNJR's Board of Govenors, I see things with a view from the inside. The goal of most of the events/areas in NNJR is to be self-supporting. Unfortunately, this can't happen all the time! So income from some events/activities will cover other aspects of the club. For example: the monthly meetings are free to members and non-members alike. However, there are costs associated with it: rental of the conference rooms, stipens for speakers (we've had folks like Glen Shrom, Hurley Haywood, and Vic Elford), and the cost of PA systems, video equipment...etc. Without a solid income from other venues (autox and DE, for example), there would be no monthly meeting. Bottom line: you've gotta look at the club as a whole to understand price increases like what is occuring with DE and autox.

Let me echo Dave's point about DE's being open to only Porsches & PCA members. Last year, all of our events were completely sold out, and there were some events that had long waiting lists. If our events weren't sold out, we would open them up to other folks. We have done this in the past with Mid-Ohio, Mosport and VIR, which, until last year weren't always sold out.

Now back to autox: I think it would be terribly wrong to increase the price for non-Porsches or non-members. They really help cover the costs of the autox. And there's another aspect that has been missed here: many non-Porsche drivers get their first exposure to Porsches and the Porsche club by participating in our autox event! BTW: My first exposure to PCA was when I started attending their autocrosses with my Toyota MR2. I was very surprised by the helpfulness, and willingness of Porsche people. While I had already decided that my next car would be a Porsche, my exposure to Porsche-folk at autox helped solidify that! I am sure there are others who feel that same way.

Ok, sorry for rambling....
-Zoltan.

adrial

What? Did you happen to miss everything I said?

A $5 decrease ($10 from what they would pay normally this year, $5 from last year) for stock '83 porsche's will not make a difference in their decision to come or not. Though I'm sure Ken and all the other 83 and earlier stock regulars are quite satisfied.

Dave

Adrial, I'm hoping that it keeps Ken in the '83, you realize what class his new toy would run in, right?

adrial

Dave,

So does that mean I may get more of those trophy things to add to my pile??