Eyal 951

You drive a HONDA would work better.
~Eyal

PorscheDoc

last time i checked, the integra was made by acura

RSflared72e

I am surprised to hear anyone thinks the Integra would outhandle the 944. In the right hands (i.e., someone with enough cojones to keep their foot in it), a 944 can beat just about any street car out there on a road course. I doubt any amount of tuning to a front-driver Integra can be expected to compensate for the 944's inherent balance. What someone said earlier about 70%/30% driver/car is definitely true. We've all seen examples of giant-killer drivers in supposedly inferior cars...

Now, straight line acceleration - depending on engine work, the Integra will very possibly walk away. But unless you have a spare stash of ring and pinions sitting around, you don't want to drag race your 944 anyway. It's made for the twisties, not the drag strip.

M758

Just for comparison my friend and former 944-spec race Paul now has a Grand Am prepped Integra Type R. Very nicely prepped and with stock motor puts out 177 whp Weight is 2550 or so with driver.

My 944-spec puts out 131 whp and run 2600 lbs with driver.

When Paul was learning the ITR he was actually slightly slower than me in my spec car. This was on the same 225/50 toyo's. When Paul was running 944-spec he was just a bit slower than me.

Now that he has leared to drive the car on the track he is about 2 seconds per lap faster. I think there may be 1 second more in the ITR until he gets all he can from it like he did with the spec car.

So in the real world on a road course a 944 wil be quite even with a GS-R or even ITR. Driver will make the biggest difference.

On the straights or in drag race the GS-R would win.

Of course if you have 944 NA don't drag race anyone. Heck it will be hard to even been a soccer mom in her new minivan with kids piled in watching a movie. 944 NA's have never been drag cars and now that they are older can be spanked by most anything on the road. It is the curves were they shine. Don't give someone the satisfaction of beating a Porsche.
Why race him. You don't need to race anyone to know that you have a sports car.

RSflared72e

Yep, unfortunately the course will have a few straights. His higher total horsepower, and inherently more-efficient front drive system getting the power to the ground a bit better, will let it pull on the 944 when the road straightens out. Still amazing that the lower-powered 944 with near-identical weight can hang as close as it does.

Nabeel

And what is the parent company of Acura.....?

The teggy is badged as a Honda outside North America anyway.

Nabeel

Oh, and I agree with most of the others here. Racing the guy is pointless. With that said, I think an Integra GS-R can easily beat a 944na in a straight line. I don't know about both cars' ultimate limit in the twisties, but I can say that it will come down to driver, because hardly anyone I know can get 10/10ths out of whatever car they drive.

SamGrant951

Anyone that runs around saying "my car is better than yours" deserves to be beaten.

Remember - We can think it! But saying it makes that porcupine/Porsche "*****" joke all to true!

Adam Richman

Heh, no amount of tuning ... that's funny
A 944 will be a bit shy of a GS-R and a GS-R is significantly off the pace of an ITR. ITS 944 has a weight w/ driver of 2750 lbs., ITS GS-R has a weight of 2690.
ITS GS-R
displ. 1.8L
0.320 - Cd
20.50 - Frontal Area
[6.56 - Cd x FA^2]
Max CR 10:1
Front Rotor @ 262 fr/239 rr (solid)
Max wheel size 15x7

ITS 944
displ. 2.5L
0.350 - Cd
19.88 - Frontal Area
[6.96 - Cd x FA^2]
Max CR 10.2:1
Front Rotor @ 283 fr/289x10 rr
Max wheel size 16x7

From my vantage point, the 944 has significantly better brakes, better torque and is allowed more wheel (IMO might be a disservice). The GS-R has marginally better aero, ~10 more whp at the same prep level and weighs 70lbs less.

DSP Acura Integra GS-R Kershaw @ 1:56.3 (2001)* (* from memory)
GS Acura Integra Type R Kershaw @ 1:55.4 (2001)
ITS Integra GS-R Kershaw @ 1:53.2 (2002)
NASA H3 Integra GS-R Kershaw @ 1:54.2 (2004)
NASA H2 Integra Type R Kershaw @ 1:51.9 (2004)

ITS Integra GS-R VIR @ 2:23.4 (2002 in the rain LOL)
ITS Integra GS-R VIR @ 2:17.6 (2002)

ITA Integra RS Road Atlanta @ 1:43.7 (and they are a good two seconds slower than a GS-R)

Fastest ITS 944 times I have seen are a 54.9 at Kershaw and a 22.9 at VIR (cannot recall from Road Atlanta), I do believe with the right driver/motor/suspension they can run as fast as the GS-Rs but I don't think they have the cornering or top end to run in front of them all things being equal. One of the big things that helps the GS-Rs is the aftermarket support for them. CAIs (although no longer legal) and headers are rather effective (dyno on my CRX w/out the CAI vs. w/ is 3whp on back to back pulls - that's not meant as empiracle but its significant nonetheless). On the ITS Prelude for instance, a DGM 4-1 header (Medusa I believe its called) puts down 6 WHP more than a really nice DC Sports 4-2-1 header (which is already a significant improvement over stock) and at like 600 bucks for the entire exhaust (header to dp) guys only have to leverage a set of tires for the extra 6 whp. Plus, you can get full race shock kits (inverted 3011 KONI type of thing) front and rear for low to mid 2k - that's not too much more than you'd pay for the 3012s on the rear alone on a 44 I'd think. You can get an ATS final drive for this car for right at 1k (how much does a new 4.11 R&P cost for a 944?). Clutch type limited slip differentials for it for under 700 (actually you can get a LSD for your 944 for the same price but that's a different topic all together). Plus the fact you can buy several types of wheels for these cars that are in the 10-12 lbs. range for cheap (and I wish the same were the case for the 944s). All of these things, insignificant as any one alone adds up and that there is a big competetive market from the tuners to the bonefide race shops means they have a lot more people trying to "win" their business.

Personally, I'd really like to see some 944s run at/near the front of the packs in ITS but I think its either cost prohibitive or it just hasn't served anyone's goals over the last 3 years (since I've been racing in IT). I'd love to see one handle as well as you guys suggest but for now, there just isn't anyone with them that I have seen (from Daytona to VIR). From first hand experience, I know that a Type R will be able to pull away out of a draft (over an indicated 6000 rpm in 5th gear) from a 944-S (which has more up top than an 8v) - seen it first hand from behind the wheel coming off the banking at LMS and there was no driver talent involved - its just flatfooted holding on.

Adam - races a HONDA, tracks a PORSCHE, thinks they are both great cars and isn't proud or ashamed by either.

I'll let you guys get back to bashing FWD and Honda now. Have fun

AlexE

???? I have a video on film of a Type R? The 195hp stock monster....

LOUSIEST (if thats a word) auto-xer I have seen in a while.......... that front end would dive in every corner............ wheels squeeling like a pig........... it was friggen hilarious............

but in a straight line it will clean your 944.

FSAEracer03

I work 2 miles away from him back home and went to school not 1/2 a mile away from his shop ...I was actually going to work for him until I talked to him a few times and realized he's an a$$hole and a half. Anywho, that's not on topic.

X 944 X ... the mods you listed for the Teg usually only increase top end power. The Honda motors, as efficient and high specific output they are, rely on high-end power. As I've seen from my roomie's Teg and many friends Hondas, as well as my own, the intake, headers and exhaust dont really help low end power OR torque whatsoever; they give them more high-end hp.

You might be able to take him in a straight line if you can launch your car well and use the 944's low end grunt to get you ahead. Make sure you remove all possible weight from the car (spares, tools, floor mats, etc.). Make sure your air filter is clean, your throttle cable is taught, your spark plugs are gapped correctly and wires are in good shape. Also be sure your dist. cap and rotor are good (be sure to check all electrical connections), your engine and tranny grounds are in very good condition, your tires are at spec inflation and your gas tank is no more than 1/4 full.

In the twisties, I have no doubt you will get him. Having gone on a spirited drive with the roomie's Teg and driven it myself, the 944's do indeed demolish them in terms of handling! The Tegs would be tough competition with suspension mods (namely an ITR rear sway bar and coilovers), but with stock setup they understeer WAY too much, as all Hondas do.

Headers and a chip will most definitely help you out on this, but slight further modification might give you a better edge on him. Have you thought of a larger bore throttle body and/or an ignition box/coil/wire upgrade(Jacobs or MSD)?

That's my $0.02 on the matter... has your car been dyno'd since the upgrades??

Robby

This thread is pretty old- I would think this race would have been run by now, if it were going to at all...

Several have said the 944 will outhandle the V-tech integra & most cars on the road- this is NOT true! If using equivalent drivers, the Integra would run at least one to two FULL seconds at Willow springs on an NA & even moreso on most auto-X courses- the NA would get beaten by most decent cars at such tracks nowdays- they're nice handling cars, but, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Take the Turbo S for example- it would outrun all of the 944/968 variants at most tracks, by at least a small margin- it was running 1:41 at Willow Springs- the Supra TT ran a 1:39! Pretty good ***-kicking there, all things considered! The Contour SVT ran ~1:46, as did Jetta VR6, V-tech Integra, Talon AWD Turbo, & several others- 968 ran 1:43.3, 300 ZXTT ran 1:42, RX7TT ran 1:40.x, even the C4 Vette ran a high 1:39 or low 1:40- 944 NA's were in the 1:47 range... these are ALL brand new tested by magazine's like R&T & C&D by their test pilots... 2nd Gen RX7's were running right w/the 944Na's of that year- I think it was '87. I'm not saying WS is THE best comparison track for all of these cars, BUT, it IS the only one I have been able to come across as many stats BY Professionals, WITH brand new cars....

I'm surprised this has become such a debate- the 944NA is bascially late 70's/early 80's technology vs early 90's technology for the Integra- one can make a pretty good case for the 944, but, when it's all said & done, usually, the integra is going to be ahead- there are FAR more mods for the Integra too- albeit MOST of them useless, but, still- it really depends on what you want- the Integra is DEFINATELY the more reliable of the two, w/OUT question! That is, until someone who doesn't know what they're doing starts trashing them up- they have examples running 8's at the 1/4 mile to street cars off the showroom floor running low 15's- brand new stock ones were ~15.4, the 944NA was closer to 16.0 IIRC- that's about 6 car lengths- again, however, it really depends on the track, road course, auto-X course, drag race, driver, condition of car, mods, etc....MANY variables here.... I know no one wants one of the biggest F&F cars of all time to be faster than our cars, but, again, let's be realistic... It's not an ***-kcking or anything, but, the Integra should win by at least a small margin, pretty much everywhere, performance-wise....

Geo

Amen to that. Geez.

Look, I'm not dissing the 944. Hell, I'm building one to go racing with. But guys, get a grip. The 944 is not the überwagen it was 20 years ago. The original Sentra SE-R can hang with the 944. I've seen it. And the SE-R Cup and 944 Cup cars are pretty evenly matched from what I understand.

As for the Integra....

It has double wishbone suspension. The 944 makes due with pedestrian McPherson struts in front and a funky rear set-up. The Integra has a vastly superior suspension. The Integra is quite a bit lighter. And it puts a fair bit more power to the ground. From what I understand they are pretty balanced and fairly easy to drive, especially with decent dampers and springs.

I can understand sticking up for your ride, but be real. The 944 does not leap tall buildings in a single bound.

My money is still firmly on the Integra.

Now, if you make the Integra a non-vtec LS, my money is on the 944. But not by a lot.

Geo

Oh brother. RWD still has the advantage over FWD. It's not huge, but it's still an advantage. I'm not so sure FWD is more efficient on a race track either.

M758

Well...
All this really adademic, but tires play a bit role in lap times at any track. Time of the year also impacts track time and so does driver experience with the track and with the car.


My example was probably very close real world.

Paul and I ran close times in the 944-spec cars. He switches to an ITR and goes no faster, at least for the first few track days. Both cars run the SAME exact tires, car weight are very similar. HP is 47+ for the ITR.

Why was he not faster? ..... He had not learned the car.

Bottom line is that its difficult to directly compare lap times. There are alot of factors involved in these. In generall terms a 944 is pretty fast, but alot of newer cars are fast to. Who is faster is really dependant on ALOT of things.

Would you be surpised to hear me say a PCA F Stock pared 944 Turbo is only a couple seconds faster than a 944-spec? Or that Grand Am prepped ITR can run with a F Stock 944 Turbo. Or that a 944-spec car can run 1:39.xx at willow in 100F summer time with potential for 1:36 laps?