Price of sorted 944 vs Boxster
 

Even though I am not in the market for a Boxster (and I have a 944), I look at Facebook Marketplace and other for sale sites just to see what's out there.

I notice a well sorted 944 is often as much or more expensive than an older Boxster. I did get to drive a Boxster this year, it was fun, but I don't like convertibles and it has none of the vintage feel vs a 944. Boxsters are cool if you like convertibles, just not for me.

So why are Boxsters so plentiful and cheap? And older Cayennes for that matter too?

because they made a crap ton of them and they're "old cars" at this point too (over 10 years old).
and 1st gen Cayenne's had nasty cheap interiors and lots of teething issues for the new platform/layout/engines/everything. fixable now, but expensive back in the day.

consider that from 1982-1991 Porsche built around 160,000 944 chassis of all variants (NA, turbo, S, S2).
in 2018 alone they did 80,000 Cayennes.

That plus the manufacturers came up with a schism to screw the public and force owners to use the dealer. Through complex electronics and the need for programming on major if not all parts.
Pretty much makes these newer cars worthless after ten years.

The 986 has the IMS bearing issues that the 996 does. I've had a timing belt failure on my 924S and it wasn't near the headache that I had worried about. IMS failure? Pretty bad from what I've seen. Our cars have a good parts support system in p!ace and there is plenty of info on how to do repairs to be found online. And a.sorted 944? Ha! Look harder. Something is about to break.......

Yeah, both the number of Boxsters produced and the IMS issue. I know I wouldn't touch one unless you are willing to set aside another Boxster in cash to replace the engine if the IMS went.

My brother purchased a brand new 1999 996 (yes, I told him not to - but he's older than me :corn:) and it did fail at around 90,000 miles - even with all dealer servicing (ouch). So he sold a roller because the engine itself was $14K...

If you go to the 996 board you'll see the horror stories - don't know what the IMS rate is but I'd venture a guess as 1 in 10 if were to buy one without an IMS upgrade.

On the other hand, I've owned my turbo S for 32 years, the only thing I've experienced was a clutch failure due to one of those little springs that failed and dropped into the bell housing...that was not fun.

I don't imagine working on 996 engines is easy. I have seen the videos on IMS bearing failure, it is bad!

So the motor is not repairable/rebuildable? or is $14K the cost of a rebuild?

Pretty sure it's the fear of an IMS issue that keeps the 996 and early 997 Boxster prices somewhat depressed. I've had my Boxster for 14 years and the original IMS is still humming away..great car...lousy resale...maybe I should buy a second one!

Did you go to a witch doctor and get the IMS Spell cast on yours to prevent failure? Or maybe you just rolled a Nat. 20 when you picked yours.

You'll probably have a better experience in a $6K 986 than you will with a $6K 944. Rust is starting to get to even the well taken care of cares in the snowy/salty areas. The 944 is more difficult to do big jobs on, parts are more expensive, etc.

That said, I love my 951 most out of my p-car fleet (86 N/A, 87 951, 01 Boxster S, 04 Cayenne Turbo)

Well, as my brother relayed to me, the IMS went and they believe that a part of a valve spring was ingested into a cylinder. So the $14K was the cost of a rebuilt engine from Porsche. These engines aren't cheap, but that's really all the detail I have.

If it were me, I'd look at a Cayman, 2nd generation and skip everything in between. I think Porsche really had issues moving from aircooled to water-cooled in that generation. Also, from what I've read, the material used in the blocks had to change because of environmental issues, and it wasn't for the better engine wise. The 944, 928 blocks were very good...

Here's Ant doing the IMS bearing on a 996 and through the magic of TV it only took a few minutes!

That surprises me. I thought the 911s/Boxsters would be harder and more expensive to work on because so much of the engine is covered up.

You'd think so, but it seems Porsche recognized that it'd be a pain and accordingly made great access to everything. A clutch job on my 951 will take the better part of 20 hours, a Boxster....6? Waterpump on a 944 is 2-3 hours....half that on a boxster. AOS on a 951...pull the intake, pull the exhaust, x-over, turbo, to finally get to 3 10mm bolts.. on a boxster if it takes an hour, you've had too many beer breaks.

The video makes it look easy, but I don't have a lift so I bet it would be hard!

Is most everything done (worked on) from underneath on Boxsters?

LOL, still so many myths and speculation about the M96 engine that came in 986 Boxsters and 996 911s. And certainly it does depress the values of the cars, which is great news if you’re in the market for one. I have owned my 97 2.5 Boxster for about 7 years now. It’s got 160k on the original IMS bearing and is still going strong. I open up the filter at each oil change, but mostly just drive the piss out of it, including street, backroads, Autocross and track days. It’s fairly easy to work on: I’ve replaced worn suspension, brakes, serpentine belt, o-rings on the steering rack. It’s getting to be time for a clutch and will have to decide then if it’s worth it to do the IMS bearing. The short of it is, we’re starting to see plenty of these cars with big miles that are doing quite well.

But I love my 951 more. I just have to steel myself every time I work on it, because it is truly a PITA! But it feels special in a way that the Boxster can’t, and you really can feel the 80s build quality that almost bankrupted Porsche. And that feeling will never be replicated I think. Even my couple of friends with beautiful Caymans haven’t convinced me otherwise!

Engine access is also from below the folded top area and behind the seats. ( in the 986/987) Access is pretty good..better than many. Easiest car in the world for an oil change.

What makes you love the 951 more?

So it makes me wonder, is the 944 the worst Porsche to work on?

I've always found these hand-built cars to be easier to work on than ones put together by machines with no consideration for taking them apart again.

I love 951's. I have owned both a 997.2 and 991.1. I don't care for the rear engine platform truthfully. The 997 was a purer car that could scare you when the rear drifted out. On the other hand the 991 is just too capable due to it's electronics. It just took the fun out of drifting and replaced it with fear for life. Its just to good to be exploited.
I have to say though I kinda miss the 997.2. I feel its the last great 911 and prices are showing it.
Still think the 951 is better though. After spending a few bucks on one, it can come pretty close to the performance of a 911. The real beauty about it, is its analog feel and front engine predictability. I don't think any other porsche comes close in the chassis department. Very predictable and fun. Never scary to drive at the edge. Feels alot like my Mx5 only faster and better.
Probably one of the most underrated and underappreciated cars.

Empirically you can can say the Boxster is a better car in most ways. Quick, amazing handling, reliable usability, very nice looks, great sound. But I grew up in the 80s, so I remember the 944 when it was a fresh exciting design, and I think it still looks great. My first Porsche was a 968 coupe, a car that grew on me more each time I drove it, until I was just obsessed with its driving characteristics and unique looks. It was totaled and insurance payout funded the Boxster. But it did not satisfy the obsession, so when the 951 came up for sale,I had to have it, no matter how rough the car was. However, though I was very happy to get it, the hastily made agreement with my wife to get rid of them Boxster fell to the wayside. The best way to own a classic 944 was to also own a Boxster! Then I found the 914...but that’s another story.

I had been told that the IMS was pretty well sorted out on the 2006 and later Boxtsers....giving much less trouble than the earlier cars...Correct or not-correct?

I own a 2006 Cayman. My reading of the issue is that the overall failure rate was always low but that is no solace when it happens to you. Yes, some improvements were made for 2006 Cayman/Boxster. And the problem totally went away in 2009 with the direct injection engine.

That depends on your skill level. There's a learning curve with any new ride but with the 944 there is a boat load of info on how to do stuff. I once had a beetle with the 1600cc and the valve adjustment was needed once a month depending on the cylinder and it couldn't have been easier to do. So it's all about what you're comfortable with working on.

the boxster is a great car but got a bad rap for engine failure which quite depressed the prices. A 944 is a higher quality car, now sought by guys wanting an older Porsche classic at a reasonable price. MOST 944s by how have been abused by many different owners (bad owners buying the car because it was an inexpensive "PORSCH" but could not afford the service and maintenance. Hence the cars deteriorated under these bandit owners. SO finding a good one is difficult and they bring premium prices (as they should!)

the IMS issue is overblown due to the exponential factor of the internet, like 944 timing belts.
yes failure happened in some small proportion of cars.
but due to the high price, upset customers are particularly loud in the car-world echo chamber and suddenly you're holding a hand grenade.

could it happen to you? sure. but parts and maintenance are available to solve the problem before it happens.

I think there is lot to be said about the last 20 years of cars being "technically inaccessible" to the majority of the masses that will be depress values long-term. The 944, for all its warts and glories, is a mechanically straightforward car, and among the last of an era of truly accessible cars. It will be interesting to see how the current generation of cars age and are valued.

agree with Spencer, failure rate is much less than what noisy people say. IIRC, I believe it was somewhere around 3%. If it was something I could fit in, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. There are plenty of available fixes for the IMS issue that can be done proactively if you are really concerned. It's definitely in another cost zone, but 996 Turbos may be the best performance bargain, as their prices have suffered somewhat due to a) 996 front end styling and b) guilt by association with IMS issues, even though the Turbos have Mezger engines with no IMS issues.

So it's been established that the IMS bearing has failed on a small percentage of 996, Boxster 986 or very early Boxster 987, Cayman 987 or 3.6 or very early 3.8 997's (from what I've read). Either you repair it or you don't. There is enough info out there to make a decision to repair/not to repair based on your reasoning.

Many are not fans of the shared front end body work of that era and the 996/986 "runny egg" headlights.

I've owned both. I prefer the 944 over the 986 for three reasons. One, the 944 interior feels much more open. Two, the 986 is a bear to work on when tinkering with the engine. Three, as someone said, there are a ton of 986s out there so they are are a commodity. Well sorted (for that matter) 944s are pretty rare these days.

you need to compare apples to apples. A base model 2.5L 97-99 Boxster will always be the least desirable, as will the earliest and slowest 944s. Also, the 986 Boxster never came as a turbo. conversely, the 944 turbo is much more desirable than the base 2.5NA so accordingly will bring more money.

I love both models and think they are undervalued by the general motoring public.

Yes & no. 1st Gen Cayennes (955) had most of the issues sorted out by 05. There are 'cheap & cheesy' aspects to the interior, but overall it's pretty good.

Again, yes & no. It takes a good scan tool (I use a Durametric) that will allow the DIYer to get into much of the electronics. There are still a few aspects that require the stealer and the factory code reader/encoder, but only a few.

That depends. Which 944?

The 951 can be a huge pain, mostly because of how much needs to be taken apart, just to get at one little thing (my impression, never actually worked on one).

The N/A 944 isn't all that bad. I've done a fair amount on my 83 and I haven't had any real "why did they do it like that?!?!?" moments.

More room to reach stuff on the 944 than the 928. Taking the cam housings off of a 16v 928 is tough enough that most suggest pulling the engine if doing both sides.

The Cayenne can be a bit of a pain, again because of how little room under the hood. Doing the coolant pipes & T on the 955 Turbo is a pretty big job. The "T" is back behind the motor, waaaaay down. Hard enough to reach that the stealership will pull the motor to do it.

No clue how they compare to the Boxter/Cayman or any of the 911s. Never worked on one.

What kinds of things can your Durametric scanner not access?

If you can do the work yourself, you can put in a used 986 motor for $3K to $4K. Labor adds a couple of K. A rebuilt S motor is $15K ball park for just the motor.

PS: the durmetric offers extensive functionality. About the only things I couldn't do was reprogram my key or reprogram the car to tell it that there was a child seat bar in the car to I could disable the passenger airbag when the family dog was riding along.

Ymmv, but i had a long weekend over a few hundred miles in an 08 V6. My old 97 Subaru had better interior materials and fit and finish. Without seeing the shield on the wheel, it felt like a Dodge.

And my god the V6 (VR6?) vibrates and buzzes like it's trying to give you a good time.

I could live with the interior with a V8 and/or turbo though for the prices they go for these days.

986/996 also suffered from the Ford Focus plastic interior but theyre a lot more fun to drive so you can forgive it.

The interior in any cayenne turbo is very nice and they are also a ton on fun to drive, especially with a reflash, exhaust, and the double thickness windows down. The issues with those are also overblown imo. Coolant ts even are a cake job with the right tools. The alternator is a ****ing nightmare though.

I'm well over 200k on my 951 , 250k on my cayenne turbo. You cant go wrong with any Porsche.

What's this about double thickness windows?

Personal take:

I almost bought a boxster instead of getting my 944S but I came to the conclusion I will always like the style of the 944 above most porsches and knew I would regret not getting into another one if I had the chance. I have driven a 2000 boxster and 911, in both I was very disappointed vs a 944 especially when compared to my 951 (380bhp). The interiors felt cheap to me and the power was meh for the expected price tags, just felt like it was more hype than quality. With the 944 I felt like a got a unique, more rare car that handles amazingly and still is close to the get up of a boxster of the early variant. When I drove a base model 944 I was more disappointed with power but at least the car was more rare and unique looking than the common porsche since I always see a sea of boxsters I feel like and honestly the 944 build quality is rather good even though some of the engine plumbing is a little wack. So it really boils down to personal taste, the boxster people will recognize more as a porsche and it is a newer car. The IMS is a known issue but honestly many have changed it and it's easier to find a deal on one with it done.

CyCloNe! what made you sell your 951?

Really a tough answer on that one. The main reason I wanted to have an LS 944 with a widebody and honestly didn’t want to cut up a 951 chassis. My turbo was very reliable and a lot of fun but it felt gutless in the low rpm and honestly I was getting tired of it taking a long time to repair little stuff. Though I was able to change the turbo in close to 3.5hrs after the first few times lol.

So mainly the notion of trying out a LS swap was very appealing and to get much more horsepower out of the 951 would take more money than I want to spend. Granted I know I need to upgrade to a 951 gearbox. The brakes I will go to boxster brembos with carrera rotors.

Looking back I would of kept my 951 especially since pricing has went way up since, bought mine for $2800, and bought another 944 to do the swap. As of right now I am still collecting parts and fixing things on the 944S, which is getting the swap.

Also i have been impressed with the 944S it really doesn’t feel that much slower than a stock 951 with the k26/6. If it had a little more hp I would even consider not doing the swap but when I add up the cost to mod it that always changes ny mind lol.

I had every variant of the 944 and have a 987.1S. Different cars. For the money people were asking for clean S2s with over 100K miles I decided to go with the 38k mile 07 Cayman S my friend had just traded in. It has a few dings, curb rash, and chips which is good - I don't freak out about it getting dirty. The sound of the motor in back of my head is intoxicating. Asking which is better is silly. So is saying the 944 with its cracked dash is a better interior. Fit and finish - hand assembled with panel gaps you can fit a tractor thorough vs near perfect panel gaps made by a robot. Pick your poison, pick your passion. In the end the only thing that matters is what the butt dyno says.

^^alert; extreme, top adviser about the 944.....


944: The great danger is when the phantom/dreaded no start lands upon you.
there are 66,030 no start threads on the (3) 944 forums.
others say no, but i say nearly insanely expensive cars to keep on the road vs/ entry cost.
968's awesome trans-con/Cannonball Run drives w/ overall reliability to look forward to in that context.
and only 3 cars in the history of the (968) variant have suffered from a no start.......
but--968's are also insanely expensive over the long haul due to the timing systems, cams, and parts that are
consistently pricey.

The power steering systems cost exceeding the thousands of dollars to keep them from leaking SHlT on your lawn/ garage/ driveway/ sacred watershed/s, and fowling your stabilizer bar & control arm bushings.
This isn't inconsequential imo. PS fluid, is after all a fire hazard.
The fuel lines are a major liability in every variant--and must never be ignored.
Fires can and do happen.

The 968 and 944T's are some of the most additive driving experiences you'll ever have.
(yes, the 968). A tuned 944T is faster of course, & even more raw.
The heavier 968 with the right suspension and big tires an accomplish otherworldly things on the road.
with my 968 with the slightly heavier LS7 engine,
the suspension parts wear faster on middle America's crud interstates.......
like many who run the big steering bars, the oem stabilizer mounts snapped clear off. (crazy).....

But they need the big power to realize their full potential.
That's where the trouble lies.... the engine bay and torque tube design render expensive solutions.....
Nevertheless, you'll reach the point with a well tuned suspension--that you hunger for that power.
What class of handling are we talking about?
Yup: 80's/90's Ferrari F40/50 class of handling.

That's why a well-tuned 968T engine dropped in one of the variants is otherworldly .....
There's no fighting it
there's a song that fairly well explains what entering into of this class of tuned rides is like---
when you reach the point that you can out-handle, and out-corner most production cars ever built on the Earth.........




in the very real sense; the sky truly is the limit...............



there's a lot to owning these cars. Attrition of the variants has so much to tell.
a few years ago, i wrote a memo about the *(ride down)--a topic that irritates a lot of folks:
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...l#post10573196

I've seen hundreds of owners who swear they'll never depart the breed.
Frankly, who could blame them w/ that Supercar handling.
just an afternoon putting on bigger than oem wheels/tires and a few suspension refreshes--
ushers in a mind-altering experience. .

944T's these cars are old. Save for the built variety, they're likely to be pretty worn out.
Even with well cared for cars, a spectrum of things can prove brittle.
Therefore; 944T's are hit or miss. Expect a BIG MISS,
which in extreme cases see economic death *(in perpetuity) of the beloved owners.

Like most things in life; There are exceptions in a wide spectrum.
What few winners there are/have been/ continue to be, are either very wealthy beating the odds.
or eventually, back away from the lit fuse, and live to tell about it.
The good natured ones often move on to become jovial instructors of the breed.
The rarest ones even own a big 3.0 not tuned to Chernobyl levels of power.
They're quite fantastic-albeit expensive rides if you abstain from courting meltdown
(re; maybe <450~475 hp for the 3.0, and <325~360 for the 2.5).
Like so many things the naysayers exist to do what they do.

Boxster: the risk factor/cost issue/s are the ims/rms for some models
+ other upkeep, such as suspension, rms water pumps (being what it is).
Overall, they are remarkably well designed cars--not terribly insane/ expensive cars to keep on the road.
But certainly not cheap. It is a Porsche, after all.
Saving Grace: there are TONS of well-maintained examples out there--jettisoned often enough with people of means,
and deep pockets to get into other performance cars.
This element was ALSO one of the really cool things about 968 purchases a decade ago.
Hundreds of insanely good cars came onto market literally, for fractions of their oem stickers.
Nowadays, you must be much much more careful with the 968's.

944T's are extremely petulant cars, w/ a lot of excessive tuning, and ownership drama in their manifests.
These aren't Audi A4's (not even sure what i mean by this).
ALWAYS GET A PPI--or prepare to pay dearly for choosing poorly.
You might even choose poorly--through no fault of your own:
Enter Lart's used parts warehouse possible saving Grace.
Do you like yourself? Be skeptical about 944T ownership unless you're an automotive genius,
you have lots of patience/are eager to learn, or won't go to pieces over a blown engine, etc.....
It can happen. 944T ownership is no joke. It requires a significant commitment.
Even better; a plan, deep pockets, etc........ there's no shame doing that in the un-911 world.
Properly tuned, they're genuine supercars--and worthy cars to proudly own.

But, have faith in the Laws of German Automotive Physics, Spacetime, etc....
Despite their wonderful engineering---they all blow up sooner than you thought *sorry.
There are 3800 threads that bolster this unpopular, road less taken point of view.

I enjoyed reading through this thread. Lots of good advice and truth here and an interesting discussion overall. I've seen a similar trend here in VA, lots of Boxsters for sale at good prices, but there's quite a few 944s for sale as well. I don't mind the Boxster at all and the 996 styling is fine with me, especially considering the pricing all 996 era Porsches are sitting at right now. After seeing all the Boxsters for sale recently I thought, "Huh, what if?", but I just think I'd be disappointed I didn't get a 944 everyday I jumped in the 986. There are some nice 986s for sale out there right now, but at least in this area, you could spend less and in my opinion, get more bang for your buck with a 944 - the 944 handles so well, easier to wrench on, TONS of info out there, parts are pretty easy to get your hands on, ease and availability of tunes and upgrades, etc. Not to mention, older cars seem to have more of a soul and the 944 is definitely one of those cars. I know I didn't put forth any facts and figures, but this is a discussion forum after all so I figured I would put my 2 cents in, though this particular post may only be worth 1.

Again, interesting read, I enjoy all the knowledge and love of cars around here.

Good read, makes me think I should of kept my 88 951 that I sold back in '93..lol. Sold her I think for 12.5k with less than 100k. Red and in immaculate condition.....

I own both a '88 944 base and a '08 Boxster. I had the 944 first, but wanted to have a 'modern' Porsche that was safer (e.g. airbags) for taking trips/drives with my wife (I know that some 944's have airbags, but they're still older cars with some risk of something not working while you're in the middle of nowhere).
I think both are priced similarly (very general statement) and affordable because they're not 911's. They were less expensive when new, and so they're more affordable when used. And non-911s won't hold value quite as well. (This has been most obvious on SUVs and Panamera which don't hold their value anywhere near as well).
I like my 944 and I like my Boxster. They're different cars, hard to compare. Different to drive, different to look at. Handling balance if fantastic in both. I enjoy having a convertible when the weather cooperates. In my case I have the 'best' IMS bearing of the 3 design iterations, it can't be easily replaced, so I have no worries for my particular design.

funny thread...talking about how the 944 can be tricky to work on.

read a story about a tech yesterday who went to replace a serpentine belt on a 6.7 ford diesel.
noticed the timing cover was busted so went to replace that.

turns out, to replace that cover you have to drop the oil pan.
turns out, to drop the oil pan its easier to just lift the body off the truck frame.

It's all relative. I still have my 944T and thought that it was the worst designed engine bay in the world when first getting it sorted. Then moved on to a 993TT and thought the same thing. Air cooled engine with a million afterthoughts tacked on like two turbos and intercooler piping fitting in a tiny rear engine bay. I'm now rebuilding an old Ferrari 365GT4 with a Colombo V12. Worst design ever. Need a water pump? It's an engine out. Need the timing chain cover off to replace chain guides? It's an engine out. Need to change air filters? It's a 6 hour job. Tuning issues? Try rebuilding and balancing six double barrel side draft webers. But all of these cars are glorious when running!

My 2006 BMW X5 with the N62 V8 has got to be the worst car ever to work on. I spent hundreds of hours under that car when literally everything broke. POS.
My boxster and Cayman are challenging, but in a good way

Just get a 987.2. The 944 is old. Time to move on.