Stereo gurus- 6x8 install- doesn't sound good- please help- Long...
02-23-2004, 03:52 AM
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Stereo gurus- 6x8 install- doesn't sound good- please help- Long...
When I bought my Turbo S, the idiot PO had screwed up most of the factory stereo stuff- stock speakers were supposed to be the M490 set-up- 6.5 w/seperate tweeter in rear - 5.25 & 3" underneath the armrest (AR) & tweeters above window switch- so, 4 rear + 6 front = 10 total.... I wanted MORE bass & a little more power w/emphasis on SQ- I did NOT want to add bunch of amps & subs, etc- multilpe reasons- I have an ADS PQ10 4-ch amp & bought a Kenwood 7017 CD HU- installed 6.5 Infinity Kappa coaxes in rear w/adapter plates (stock 6.5's were square, like many 5.25's- strange & VERY annoying)- I bought some 968 door panels that came w/speakers, but, for some reason, SOME M490s were butchered by the factrory & deleted the 3" under the AR- that little 3" mid makes a surprisingly big dif too.
I wanted my sound stage to be up front, like normal, plus, I wanted more bass- the stereo set-up in these cars is pretty screwy- the imaging kind of sucks- rears are right behind the head & the fronts of the Turbo S fire into your leg- still sounds pretty good, however, but, they really are too close together front to rear- I didn't want to put speakers way back in the hatch though & knew (from experience) that I would have to find SOMETHING to seal up the rear speakers holes or a good amount of noise would come in- I decided to use 6.5 Kappas & leave them alone- wish I'd pulled the panels & cut some metal & installed something larger now- well, the rears were much better than the fronts- SO- I bought some 6.5 CDT CL61's (components) for $150(!!!) from The Zeb- wish I'd found them before, when I did the rears, but, THEY would be pretty fu**ing hard to top, so having the sound stage up front would be difficult, but... I was unable to install them (just barely) underneath the AR b/c of the combo of depth (3.25") & diam- I KNEW that 6" diam would work, as long as depth were not much >2.5" -anyway, I found the Infinity 6800CS- a 6x8 seperate- verey rare to find such a size w/seperate tweeter. I installed them by enlarging the magnet hole in the panel & then screwing them in- didn't put the pockets on- I wanted to see how they would sound- HORRIBLE! I was told it was b/c I needed some sort of enclosure- stock M490 5.25 & 3 under the AR are mounted in a small plastic frame that pretty much fills up the rear area of the door pocket & forms such an enclosure- they're small speakers, yes, but, they DO give a surprising amount of bass for their size- I made a thin, wooden adapter plate, MUCH like the plastic one for the M490s- I was VERY tedious about making it the perfect size- I wanted it to form as good a full enclosure as possible- the only sections NOT sealed (left open) were the ends, BUT, THEY would be closed off when the pockets were installed- one end is ~4" tall by 1" think at top & slopes down to flush at the bottom- kind of wedge shaped- & the other side is ~2.5-3" tall by maybe .75" thick at top &, again, slopes to flush at the bottom- very small openings. Anyway, I installed the speaker this way & tried it on one side, b/c it's a PITA b/c I'm working on several other things at this time & wanted to know for sure if it worked before finishing up- I had it hooked to amp, etc & it sounded better than before, BUT, it didn't sounds NEARLY as good as either of the rears- ESPECIALLY when it came to bass....
Why is this? Any ideas? Could the small open ends be making THAT much of a dif? I would expect the pocket sealing off the ends better would make a slight dif, but, I would doubt it would be much(?). Could it be b/c the TOTAL VOLUME of the ensclosure is too small for the speakers? I understand that larger subs require larger enclosures to sound good. Wouldn't these 6x8's STILL give more bass than the factory 5.25's w/the same opening, even if not optimized? What can I do? IF it's a questIon of enclosure space, the only thing I can really do is cut the section of door panel behind the magnet (leaving the magnet not tightly held in place, which DOES add some stability- stock 5.25 did the same thing btw)- I would then have to cut the plastic moisture thing on inner door, which would leave a hole, slightly larger than the speaker, under where the window would come down, & the whole door is hollow, although it has lot's of things INSIDE it, like the window, it's motor, handles, etc... would THIS help enclosure-wise?
Any input or ideas on this would be GREATLY appreciated- if these wont work, I think I'm going to go back to a simple 5.25" & either fit it in the factory plastic enclosure frame, OR, make a wooden one like I did for the 6x8, although I'm not sure this would work any better, unless the smaller speaker just REALLY DID give MORE bass in a smaller area than a large speaker(?). The other possibility is to find as shallow a 6.5 as possible & mount it up front where the original 4x6's went- the later 968 M490 moved the 3" mids up there for better imaging- anyway, again, any input would REALLY be appreciated... sorry this was so long...
I wanted my sound stage to be up front, like normal, plus, I wanted more bass- the stereo set-up in these cars is pretty screwy- the imaging kind of sucks- rears are right behind the head & the fronts of the Turbo S fire into your leg- still sounds pretty good, however, but, they really are too close together front to rear- I didn't want to put speakers way back in the hatch though & knew (from experience) that I would have to find SOMETHING to seal up the rear speakers holes or a good amount of noise would come in- I decided to use 6.5 Kappas & leave them alone- wish I'd pulled the panels & cut some metal & installed something larger now- well, the rears were much better than the fronts- SO- I bought some 6.5 CDT CL61's (components) for $150(!!!) from The Zeb- wish I'd found them before, when I did the rears, but, THEY would be pretty fu**ing hard to top, so having the sound stage up front would be difficult, but... I was unable to install them (just barely) underneath the AR b/c of the combo of depth (3.25") & diam- I KNEW that 6" diam would work, as long as depth were not much >2.5" -anyway, I found the Infinity 6800CS- a 6x8 seperate- verey rare to find such a size w/seperate tweeter. I installed them by enlarging the magnet hole in the panel & then screwing them in- didn't put the pockets on- I wanted to see how they would sound- HORRIBLE! I was told it was b/c I needed some sort of enclosure- stock M490 5.25 & 3 under the AR are mounted in a small plastic frame that pretty much fills up the rear area of the door pocket & forms such an enclosure- they're small speakers, yes, but, they DO give a surprising amount of bass for their size- I made a thin, wooden adapter plate, MUCH like the plastic one for the M490s- I was VERY tedious about making it the perfect size- I wanted it to form as good a full enclosure as possible- the only sections NOT sealed (left open) were the ends, BUT, THEY would be closed off when the pockets were installed- one end is ~4" tall by 1" think at top & slopes down to flush at the bottom- kind of wedge shaped- & the other side is ~2.5-3" tall by maybe .75" thick at top &, again, slopes to flush at the bottom- very small openings. Anyway, I installed the speaker this way & tried it on one side, b/c it's a PITA b/c I'm working on several other things at this time & wanted to know for sure if it worked before finishing up- I had it hooked to amp, etc & it sounded better than before, BUT, it didn't sounds NEARLY as good as either of the rears- ESPECIALLY when it came to bass....
Why is this? Any ideas? Could the small open ends be making THAT much of a dif? I would expect the pocket sealing off the ends better would make a slight dif, but, I would doubt it would be much(?). Could it be b/c the TOTAL VOLUME of the ensclosure is too small for the speakers? I understand that larger subs require larger enclosures to sound good. Wouldn't these 6x8's STILL give more bass than the factory 5.25's w/the same opening, even if not optimized? What can I do? IF it's a questIon of enclosure space, the only thing I can really do is cut the section of door panel behind the magnet (leaving the magnet not tightly held in place, which DOES add some stability- stock 5.25 did the same thing btw)- I would then have to cut the plastic moisture thing on inner door, which would leave a hole, slightly larger than the speaker, under where the window would come down, & the whole door is hollow, although it has lot's of things INSIDE it, like the window, it's motor, handles, etc... would THIS help enclosure-wise?
Any input or ideas on this would be GREATLY appreciated- if these wont work, I think I'm going to go back to a simple 5.25" & either fit it in the factory plastic enclosure frame, OR, make a wooden one like I did for the 6x8, although I'm not sure this would work any better, unless the smaller speaker just REALLY DID give MORE bass in a smaller area than a large speaker(?). The other possibility is to find as shallow a 6.5 as possible & mount it up front where the original 4x6's went- the later 968 M490 moved the 3" mids up there for better imaging- anyway, again, any input would REALLY be appreciated... sorry this was so long...
02-23-2004, 09:11 AM
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Burning Brakes
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If you have poor bass ,first check polarity of your speaker wires,if pos and neg get crossed they will be working out of phase( as 1 speaker pushes out the other pushes in ,effectivly cancelling out the sound /bass)
Also there are subs that hide in the rear cubby,out of sight and sound great!
Also there are subs that hide in the rear cubby,out of sight and sound great!
02-23-2004, 01:24 PM
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i would also check how close the magnet is to a metal surface. if the magnet is very close to metal, it'll suck all the base away because the cone isn't moving very much.
02-26-2004, 07:26 AM
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It doesn't appear that either of these were the problems- the magnet is no closer than the stock one was & I've checked the wiring- I'm almost 100% positive it's correct.... I might need to go through it all one more time, but...
Any other ideas? I mean, does the 6x8 need more space (enclosure) than the 5.25? I mean, the 5.25 actually loses SOME of it's volume to the 3" that sits w/it in the M490 set-up- Still, it doesn't make sense that w/the SAME volume of enclosure, that the 5.25 would give MORE bass- does it? anyone?
Any other ideas? I mean, does the 6x8 need more space (enclosure) than the 5.25? I mean, the 5.25 actually loses SOME of it's volume to the 3" that sits w/it in the M490 set-up- Still, it doesn't make sense that w/the SAME volume of enclosure, that the 5.25 would give MORE bass- does it? anyone?
02-26-2004, 04:05 PM
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How much power are you sending to the speakers? I've found with Infinity speakers that they just don't put out a lot of bass (subs especially). They always sound crisp and clear but never seem to have the feel of some other brands. I wonder if they've begun designing their larger speakers to have more crips highs/mids to complement the use of subwoofers for lows...just a thought.
02-26-2004, 04:49 PM
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Most of the time full range speakers don't REALLY need a enclosure for car audio. Reason being the manufactures know that there is no ideal conditions in a car, with materials, volume for the speaker to operate and what not. (unless of course they are demo'ing the speakers for you then they have spent hours designing enclosures just for the one purpose of showing them off, then they have killer time spent on RTA, and SPL homework)
BUT I have three ideas for you:
1) make an enclosure, just test to see how it sounds. you can put a hole it in to port it. OR use that PVC pipe as a variable size control by capping the port and just relocate the pipes depth and fine the "sweet spot" then measure out the volume and you have a pretty good idea of what you need.
2) There could be a jumper that has been set for the low pass to be cut off. I am not 100% sure of the cross over network on the Kappa series, but usually a good highend cross over will have control over the low pass filter. Or it could be a diode that is preventing the signal from going to the driver. I know i installed a set of Panasonics in a buddy's car and had the same issue. No bass, no matter how bad *** we put the bass boost on, nothing. (the cross over was so simple it kind of dumb founded me) So i flipped the two wires round, and smooth operations. That is an out side chance on that one but i am just stating it for the sake of it could be something.
Last of all, VERY outside chance again. But if the pole pieces are vented they usually need a little space to vent. I know that the usual Sub woofer should have around 2 inchs space for the vent, or you could get back pressure, port noise, and other undesirable outcomes.
Now personally i would think about doing the small enclosure with a variable duct to see what sounds best. This way you can try it on different sources, like other amps, and locations. Other wise you could trouble shoot this issue until your grey/bald.
One other thing, does your Amp have cross over controls? ADS are damn nice amps and the interal cross over could be set so you have less low fill.
I hope this helps, whatever happens please keep us filled in. I would really like to hear your outcome. Sounds like your going to have a well rounded SQ system.
Steve
BUT I have three ideas for you:
1) make an enclosure, just test to see how it sounds. you can put a hole it in to port it. OR use that PVC pipe as a variable size control by capping the port and just relocate the pipes depth and fine the "sweet spot" then measure out the volume and you have a pretty good idea of what you need.
2) There could be a jumper that has been set for the low pass to be cut off. I am not 100% sure of the cross over network on the Kappa series, but usually a good highend cross over will have control over the low pass filter. Or it could be a diode that is preventing the signal from going to the driver. I know i installed a set of Panasonics in a buddy's car and had the same issue. No bass, no matter how bad *** we put the bass boost on, nothing. (the cross over was so simple it kind of dumb founded me) So i flipped the two wires round, and smooth operations. That is an out side chance on that one but i am just stating it for the sake of it could be something.
Last of all, VERY outside chance again. But if the pole pieces are vented they usually need a little space to vent. I know that the usual Sub woofer should have around 2 inchs space for the vent, or you could get back pressure, port noise, and other undesirable outcomes.
Now personally i would think about doing the small enclosure with a variable duct to see what sounds best. This way you can try it on different sources, like other amps, and locations. Other wise you could trouble shoot this issue until your grey/bald.
One other thing, does your Amp have cross over controls? ADS are damn nice amps and the interal cross over could be set so you have less low fill.
I hope this helps, whatever happens please keep us filled in. I would really like to hear your outcome. Sounds like your going to have a well rounded SQ system.
Steve
02-26-2004, 06:29 PM
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yeah, test it in an enclosure. if that doesn't do it then it's def the x-over. if it sounds fine in the enclosure, then it's the magnet. i know you said the distance to the metal was about the same, but what about the diff in the size of the magnets? the ones that are on infinitys are fairly large, even more so for the kappa's. keep us posted.
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02-26-2004, 06:38 PM
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Thanks for the input guys...
Not sure about Inifity & their bass, but, the rears are 6.5 Infinity coaxes & they put out a lot more bass than these, which surprises me, since they are 6x8 components. The rears DO have a little more enclosure room though, being under that rear window- more depth- I'm considering putting these 6x8's in the rear of the car- the ******* PO already cut speaker holes in the rear carpet- I could run these off 2 of the ADS channels & the regular rears (6.5 infinity coaxes) off the other 2 ADS channels & then, run some nice component 5.25's off 2 of the HU channels maybe? There would still be 2 left over Would this work? Would there be a way to run a nice pair of 5.25's up front off ALL 4 HU channels? I'm just thinking out my options- I'm just a little pissed about the CDT CL61's- I understand those are some of the nicest speakers I could get w/out spending a literal fortune & I got them for $150 new- if only the 5.25 CL51 would have been the same price I would have just exhanged them when they didn't fit the front area- too deep- I almost should have kept the CL61s & used them in the rear, but, again, my sound stage needs to come from the front & that would be hard to top- I also know that basss normally comes from the rear, so, if I put these 6x8 seperates in the FAR rear, then, that would work & I could use a nice 5.25 up front.... BUT... I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS- I WANT SIMPLE!!!! I'M GOING NUCKIN FUTS!!!
The 6800CS is the specific 6x8 component I'm talking about- the X-over has 7 contacts- I JUST noticed something too- I MAY have misunderstood something- OKAY- I have a - & + "IN" & a - & + "WF" & for the tweeter, I have 3 contacts- there is a - & a + & a -3dB. I'm not positive which ones I had the tweeter into, if it was correct or not- I'm 99.9% sure I had the other right- what is the "-3dB"? I was assuming it was to bring the treble down a little- is that correct? Which wire would I actually run to it then- the "+" or the "-"? I THINK I ran the + to the + & the - to the - b/c I KNOW I eliminated it- that's the way I have the other speaker hooked up right beside me & I did them both the same way- or tried to anyway... What about the wire- the red w/black IS negative, right? I've always used it that way....
I'm thinking- I have a decent amount of extra RF wire- I might have enough to run from the amp to the rear of the car (amp is over ECU under dash) - I could sit the 6x7 in the rear, in one of the holes the ******* PO cut & see if it sounds better- I may try that later, but, will probaly wait until tommorrow- I'm really sick at the moment...
Any more input on this stuff would be GREATLY appreciated... I don't know if all I'm going, or, saying, is making sense, but, since I upgraded the rears nicer 6.5's, I wanted something better up front- they didn't have to be deeper/larger really, but, I wanted as much bass as I could possibly get w/out running subs- I really wanted 6.5's up front but I couldn't find anything for a decnet price that would fit, etc- the depth was a prob in the door under the amrest & the diamter made it worse- these 6x8's are really ~5.75" on their sides- & they are barely over 2.5" deep- the CDT CL61's were ~3.25" deep, and, of course, 6.5" tall- this ruled them out- plus, w/speaker grills on them, they were almost another .5" deeper, so, I couldn't mount them up front of the door w/out hacking up my 968 panels AND pockets, which I wasn't willing to do....
Anyway, again, I appreciate any help yopu can give & I DO have pics (& can get many more) of what I've done & am trying to do, etc, if it helps....
Not sure about Inifity & their bass, but, the rears are 6.5 Infinity coaxes & they put out a lot more bass than these, which surprises me, since they are 6x8 components. The rears DO have a little more enclosure room though, being under that rear window- more depth- I'm considering putting these 6x8's in the rear of the car- the ******* PO already cut speaker holes in the rear carpet- I could run these off 2 of the ADS channels & the regular rears (6.5 infinity coaxes) off the other 2 ADS channels & then, run some nice component 5.25's off 2 of the HU channels maybe? There would still be 2 left over Would this work? Would there be a way to run a nice pair of 5.25's up front off ALL 4 HU channels? I'm just thinking out my options- I'm just a little pissed about the CDT CL61's- I understand those are some of the nicest speakers I could get w/out spending a literal fortune & I got them for $150 new- if only the 5.25 CL51 would have been the same price I would have just exhanged them when they didn't fit the front area- too deep- I almost should have kept the CL61s & used them in the rear, but, again, my sound stage needs to come from the front & that would be hard to top- I also know that basss normally comes from the rear, so, if I put these 6x8 seperates in the FAR rear, then, that would work & I could use a nice 5.25 up front.... BUT... I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS- I WANT SIMPLE!!!! I'M GOING NUCKIN FUTS!!!
The 6800CS is the specific 6x8 component I'm talking about- the X-over has 7 contacts- I JUST noticed something too- I MAY have misunderstood something- OKAY- I have a - & + "IN" & a - & + "WF" & for the tweeter, I have 3 contacts- there is a - & a + & a -3dB. I'm not positive which ones I had the tweeter into, if it was correct or not- I'm 99.9% sure I had the other right- what is the "-3dB"? I was assuming it was to bring the treble down a little- is that correct? Which wire would I actually run to it then- the "+" or the "-"? I THINK I ran the + to the + & the - to the - b/c I KNOW I eliminated it- that's the way I have the other speaker hooked up right beside me & I did them both the same way- or tried to anyway... What about the wire- the red w/black IS negative, right? I've always used it that way....
I'm thinking- I have a decent amount of extra RF wire- I might have enough to run from the amp to the rear of the car (amp is over ECU under dash) - I could sit the 6x7 in the rear, in one of the holes the ******* PO cut & see if it sounds better- I may try that later, but, will probaly wait until tommorrow- I'm really sick at the moment...
Any more input on this stuff would be GREATLY appreciated... I don't know if all I'm going, or, saying, is making sense, but, since I upgraded the rears nicer 6.5's, I wanted something better up front- they didn't have to be deeper/larger really, but, I wanted as much bass as I could possibly get w/out running subs- I really wanted 6.5's up front but I couldn't find anything for a decnet price that would fit, etc- the depth was a prob in the door under the amrest & the diamter made it worse- these 6x8's are really ~5.75" on their sides- & they are barely over 2.5" deep- the CDT CL61's were ~3.25" deep, and, of course, 6.5" tall- this ruled them out- plus, w/speaker grills on them, they were almost another .5" deeper, so, I couldn't mount them up front of the door w/out hacking up my 968 panels AND pockets, which I wasn't willing to do....
Anyway, again, I appreciate any help yopu can give & I DO have pics (& can get many more) of what I've done & am trying to do, etc, if it helps....
02-26-2004, 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by kinda5150
yeah, test it in an enclosure. if that doesn't do it then it's def the x-over. if it sounds fine in the enclosure, then it's the magnet. i know you said the distance to the metal was about the same, but what about the diff in the size of the magnets? the ones that are on infinitys are fairly large, even more so for the kappa's. keep us posted.
yeah, test it in an enclosure. if that doesn't do it then it's def the x-over. if it sounds fine in the enclosure, then it's the magnet. i know you said the distance to the metal was about the same, but what about the diff in the size of the magnets? the ones that are on infinitys are fairly large, even more so for the kappa's. keep us posted.
Thanks
02-26-2004, 08:08 PM
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Well if it were the magent, say it was off center (for some god awful reason) then it would be a default on the assembly line. You could take it back under warrenty. But thats highly unlikely from Infinity. I also am running the 6 1/2's as my rear fill. You mentioned bass usually coming from the rear, and your correct. But at the same time bass is none dirrectional.
If you could send a pic of the cross over on some x-overs you have two inputs sources and two out put sources and if you do have that you could utilize all channels in the HU and amps also. But have you ever thought of using JL audio's line of small subs. The 6 inch ones. you could mount those in the rear where the PO cut the holes. they would give you a nice fill for bass nothing TOO boomy but at the same time give you that low fill and hit hard like any full range driver. Just a thought, plus you can pick them up for real cheap. I have been drawing a little lay out to show you what I am talking about with the use all channels bit. I'll post it in a short while after i get some of my own car audio issues worked out
Steve
If you could send a pic of the cross over on some x-overs you have two inputs sources and two out put sources and if you do have that you could utilize all channels in the HU and amps also. But have you ever thought of using JL audio's line of small subs. The 6 inch ones. you could mount those in the rear where the PO cut the holes. they would give you a nice fill for bass nothing TOO boomy but at the same time give you that low fill and hit hard like any full range driver. Just a thought, plus you can pick them up for real cheap. I have been drawing a little lay out to show you what I am talking about with the use all channels bit. I'll post it in a short while after i get some of my own car audio issues worked out
Steve
02-27-2004, 12:05 AM
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How much can you tune the sound with your head unit? Only treble, mid, and bass or do you have a full equalizer?The problem could be your head unit(it's easier for u to tell me than for me to look up the specs on that 7017)
02-27-2004, 07:50 PM
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Baron-
http://www.connact.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faqst.html
944CS- I only have bass, treble, & mid.... The PQ10 ADS amp has no EQ adjustment at all... I'll TRY to take a few pics of some of this a little later- I'm sick as hell & just got back from the DR- I'm sore all over, etc- I'm going to sleep for awhile...
Thanks for the help guys...
Roral- I'm going to try to send you a pic really quick, since that's all right here...
I don't really want to add anything else- I just want to make this work- I'm at teh end of my rope & about ready to get rid of the car over the stereo- it's just the final straw really- I'm in a foul mood though....
I stopped by a shop today- the guy said that since I have the magnet snug in the whole right behind the speaker, that, I need to open that up a little to get more air BEHIND the first wall- tehere is a back wall & a front panel- the front one is the one the speaker is flush with- the back wall only overlaps ~ 1/4" of magnet- this makes no sense- hte stock 5.25" put out bass (about even w/these 6x8's) & it had the SAME EXACT configuration....
http://www.connact.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faqst.html
944CS- I only have bass, treble, & mid.... The PQ10 ADS amp has no EQ adjustment at all... I'll TRY to take a few pics of some of this a little later- I'm sick as hell & just got back from the DR- I'm sore all over, etc- I'm going to sleep for awhile...
Thanks for the help guys...
Roral- I'm going to try to send you a pic really quick, since that's all right here...
I don't really want to add anything else- I just want to make this work- I'm at teh end of my rope & about ready to get rid of the car over the stereo- it's just the final straw really- I'm in a foul mood though....
I stopped by a shop today- the guy said that since I have the magnet snug in the whole right behind the speaker, that, I need to open that up a little to get more air BEHIND the first wall- tehere is a back wall & a front panel- the front one is the one the speaker is flush with- the back wall only overlaps ~ 1/4" of magnet- this makes no sense- hte stock 5.25" put out bass (about even w/these 6x8's) & it had the SAME EXACT configuration....
02-27-2004, 08:36 PM
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DAMMIT!!!! Can't get pics t come up.... DAMMIT!!!!
Here are some pics of the stock 5.25 w/stock frame & my modded 6x8...
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0480.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0478.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0480_copy1.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0469.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0476.jpg
Here are some pics of the stock 5.25 w/stock frame & my modded 6x8...
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0480.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0478.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0480_copy1.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0469.jpg
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/imgp0476.jpg