david fracolli

Dave, if you want my Mass Air Flow setup let me know. It consists of a hunley ARC2 controller and a pro-m bullet style mass air sensor. I am going to go back to the stock set up as it looks like i am going to be getting rid of the car. I also am going to be getting rid of the cam and installing a stock one back in as the one i have is just to radical for the winters up here.

Dave

I guess I have to learn to type faster!
Matt, You've probably seen some of the bits and pieces of my rebuild that have graced these pages, I typed up the whole thing a while ago and still haven't decided if I want to post it here, it's a good chance for others to learn from my mistake, as in "don't let this happen to you." OTOH, AMW meant well and it's not the kind of publicity that any business needs. I guess calling Anderson isn't in my best interest and FWIH, Huntley is out of business. SFR doesn't have alot of NA stuff, their exhaust system might be in my future though and they do have a couple other peices that are posibilities.

Port matching is on the "to do" list, By the time I'm done, I'll need a custom chip so that'll be the last thing (finishing touch, as it were). I'd love to do an SC, but at ~11:1 CR, it might not be the best idea, maybe on the next motor!

Matt H

Huntley is not out of business, they are doing some major overhaul work on their website and I think they have some other changes coming. That is from Derrick, so unless, it changed and HE said it (not a rumor here) I will take his word. I have never done business with him myself.

Call JME http://www.jmengines.com/index.htm I dont know many guys who know more about these cars than he does. Another good lead would be Don Istook.
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Dave

David, What's your experience with the MAF? Not many have done it to an NA. I've heard you mention the cam before and that is part of why I'm hesitant to go for any cam change without a lot more research. Just how wild a cam did you get??? I miight be interested in the MAF, if I can find a job by the time you're ready to sell .
Matt, Thanks for the input. Good to hear that Huntley's still around! I already had JME bookmarked. As above, none of it is on the fast track 'till I'm employed, for now I'm just doing the researsh to make educated choices when the time comes.

Geo

Oh boy. Here we go. Grab a beer and hold on. Or better yet, hold my beer and watch this.......

The single biggest reason nobody is making power with the NA 944 engine is simple. Nobody is developing them. Why? Because nobody is willing to spend the money. I spent $6k building the killer NA engine for my Sentra SE-R. How many people here are willing to put that into their NA944?

Jon Milledge (JME) is doing great things, but he's building mostly for racing and has more work than he needs.

Increasing the compression will increase power, but not by anywhere near as much as people think. Figure about 3-5 hp per point of compression increase.

If I were to build a killer NA engine for a street 944 (I'm highly restricted in what I can do for my car by the rules) there are a number of things I'd do.

The first thing I'd do is lose the AFM. The barn door type meter just sucks compared with a MAF. I'd go MAF instead of MAP because a MAF basically reads air mass directly so any changes in VE (volumetric efficiency) will not require a reprogramming of the ECU (DME). Then I'd get a stand-alone ECU (due to lack of any really good alternatives for the 944)

The MAF would set a great foundation by removing a nasty restriction (and screwing with laminar flow), the aforementioned adjusting to changes in VE, and it also has a round opening (don't select once that doesn't). The round opening will make it easy to create a good CAI. A good CAI makes most of its power through tuning of the length of pipe. This can make a huge difference. The cold air is actually only creates a small portion of the increased power. Build a CAI and then tune it on the dyno by making a run, cutting 1/2 " off it and making another run, and repeat for several runs. Choose the length that makes the most power. This is exactly how AEM determines the best length for their CAIs.

Next I'd get a good header. Supposedly the MSDS and Bursh headers are not that great, but there is another one (name escapes me at the moment) that is significantly better, but twice the price. I got a great deal on a Bursch so I'll use that temporarily and then replace it when I can with the better one. Also get a good high flow CAT from Magnaflow and a good high flow exhaust. Get a perforated core muffler, not a louvered design. The louvered designs are usually worse than OEM mufflers. They really disturb air flow.

Get a cam from JME (Jon Milledge Engineering). I have little doubts he's got a killer NA cam.

Get a set of underdrive pulleys. They work. Get a low mass flywheel. These things don't actually make horsepower (although an inertial dyno will say they do). What they do is accelerate faster and that ultimately what we are looking for.

Knife edge the crank for lower reciprocating mass and less windage losses.

I'd build a custom short-runner intake manifold. I don't know how to do the calculations, but usually you can make some big hp gains with a short runner manifold (although you'll likely lose some power down low).

These are all tried and true ways to make power. With decent dyno development, I have no doubt they would work for the 944 and these are only bolt-ons.

For more power, increase the compression. There is almost always power to be made in the head. Have Jon Milledge or Don Istook do a killer valve job (don't under estimate the contribution this can make). Get the head flowed and I'd have the head ported an polished.

Lastly, I'd go wild on coatings. I'd get the bearings coated (Milledge swears by this), the piston crowns coated, the combustion chambers coated and I'd have the header coated with Swain's White Lightning coating (I used this in my NA header and my turbo manifold and housing).

This is all just for starters. Oh, and don't forget to balance the hell out of all the rotating and reciprocating masses.

Milledge makes 183 bhp on a IT legal engine. You can do very little to an IT legal engine. Certainly far less than I've described. I'll bet Jon can get 200-215 bhp out of a street engine. Perhaps more.

Bring your checkbook. No, get a wheelbarrow and fill it with money. In fact, get two.

Dave

George, I got 2 kegs sitting in the fridge next to me, one's tapped and the other's a backup! The wheelbarrows of cash are the problem, but a little cash at a time will get me there and gives me time to learn to drive it .
I knew there was another advantage to building a street motor, no pesky RULES to slow you down. I'm already in the highest class they can stick me in for autocross.
You make a lot of good points, I'm in agreement on the barndoor flapper. Going down the rest of your list, I'm on the right track I think!

adrial

Dave,

I didn't know you were planning.

The SMT6 and other similar piggybacks are things you should look into. Then pick up a MAF from pro-flow for $200 and you'll be ready to go. DIY MAF with fuel and timing control for $550 + the cost of fabricating an intake + filter. So lets say $650 being conservative.

When you decide to build your engine, let me know (assuming my engine doesn't explode when I go to start it for the first time...in that case you'd probably want to stay away...haha). By the time I'm done I should have a pretty good list of parts sources and how much they want for a number of the basic engine rebuild parts along with a few machine shops to try.

Did you read the rebuild thread that I posted? I got a lot of very very informative responses that would apply to any engine build - stock or modified.

Here's the link: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...5&pagenumber=1

Page 1 is more specific to me, but as you go from there it goes towards general engine builds.

Something else to note, in a recent thread it was mentioned that lightning the crank is not a good idea unless you also lighten the rods and pistons. It's a balanced system, until you go cutting stuff up.

See you in March, unless another gathering happens before then.

Manning

Haha, George, you must keep most of that post in a text file somewhere on your computer. I think I must have read that thing, or most of it, ten times before.

So yeah, Milledge seems like the man to talk to. When a pot of money falls in my lap that's who I would talk to. The fact that he get's power the way he does in a motor that is IT legal says it all.

Regarding a short runner intake, how about his multi throttle body setup, any thoughts there?

Tom M'Guinn

Stupid question, but when you bore a throttle body like that, don't you also need a bigger butterfly flap thingy? Where do you get those in bigger sizes?

Dave

Thanks Adrial but the engine's built, that list of parts on the last page is what's already in there (didn't you wonder why I was in M1 class with you?), crank is in it, pistons are in it, etc. The head is as discribed but I have my doubts about it so I may get a backup head ready. The big problem is that it's breathing through the stock intake and most of the stock exhaust, and therefore is making only a little extra power, I need to get it working right so that you can go back to envying my autocross times . One of the reasons that I'm still on the fence on the MAF is that I'm not sure where I want to go with engine management. I'm not looking to rewire the whole car and getting a system dialed in scares the heck out of me (even with a background in digital electronics!). The other reason is that "lack o' job thingy."
I checked out that thread when it was young but didn't see much that applied to me, I'll have to give it another look.
I do still have my original engine that I plan to rebuild and keep as a backup, but it's more likely to get rings, bearings and resealed, I doubt I'll source the parts to build another like what's in there now. Keep in mind that the one that's in there wasn't my idea, or even my choice, but it's in there now and I might as well put it to good use.

Geo

Hehe. That was all off the top of my head. I don't think I ever posted all of that in one place at one time. Oh, and I would also get an adjustable cam gear as well. Forgot about that.

If you're talking about his barrell TBs, I think you'd need a Brinks truck to buy those.

A short runner intake manifold shouldn't be that hard to make. With used manifolds selling for cheap, I'd just buy a spare, cut the runners about a third of the way from the head and weld on a flat plate. Then I'd have the plate machined to accept Weber 40 DCOE or 45 DCOE trumpets so I could adjust the runner length. And of course I'd have to build a plenum. Still, shouldn't be all that hard.

Rather than the barrell TBs, I should think it wouldn't be all that hard to make a set of slide valve TBs. Of course, then you'd have to figure out how to calibrate some sort of TPS.

944JM

It's good to see some actual discussion of 'how to' other than 'buy a turbo'.

944JM

Geo, on creating your own intake. Would it be better to change the flow from the end of the plenum to a more central position? Like in the middle? Or even change the 90 deg bend the air flow takes to more like 60 deg bend? Seems the front cylinders would be more starved due the the inertia of the incoming air sweeping past or is the plenum area calculated to aleviate this? In the V8s I used to deal with, the straightest path to the cylinder, not always the shortest, was best hence the tunnel ram intakes with small plenums (not that I advocate a tunnel ram on a Porsche of course). Also I've heard about 'rough' walls versus 'smooth' walls. Which is best? Trying to learn all I can.

Geo

I don't have the engineering background to actually model this (although a few close friends do). But, I don't think I'd worry about placement. If you look at an F3 car or even top level pro touring cars, I've never seen anyone make an effort to move the TB to the center. I do know that the plenum should not be tubular with parrallel walls. It has something to do with reflections off the back of the plenum. It screws with the efficiency somehow. I assume it cancels some of the flow (out of phase).

Typically you would want to go with short runners and larger plenum. I'd probably mess with the bend a little, but only in front of the runners.

The V8s with tunnel ram don't really have a plenum. I would guess that tunnel rams not only make power by having a straighter path, but even more through tuning the lengths.

As for smooth vs rough wall, I'd go smooth wall all the way.

adrial

I wondered, but I thought you were in modified cause of some mild head work and the pistons. I had no idea about the crank! I wouldn't expect too much out of your current setup, but thats just me. I think you need some serious quality headwork and a cam to go along with it. The MAF and exhaust should certaintly help unleash what you've got going for you now. At the very least the MAF will let you fine tune your a/f ratio's (and timing if you go SMT6) for max power. Thing about the SMT6 is that it only gives you +/- timing values, so you'd have to know what your chips are doing. You can send them off to someone to have that done for very little.

With the MAF, if you go that route you'll definetely want to pick up a wideband O2 setup as well. So bring that total to an even $1000, with no need to go to the dyno except for power numbers. Even that you could take care of with the Road Dyno that Perry uses. I was intending to get the SMT6 and MAF going on my car soon after I finish this rebuild, but it doesn't look like I'll have the money. So I'll be running stock horsepower for a little bit. Come on now...I'll be at stock horsepower AND street tires...if you dont catch me then...there's just no hope!

Lack of job is a good reason to put things off though, I'd say. The market seems to be better now than it was a few months ago though.
The thread I mentioned would be usefull when you get into rebuilding your old engine for a spare.

Good luck finding a job and whatever route you go after that...