Greg86andahalf

Matt,

good info. I have read where stock front springs, adj. Koni's and a front weltmeister set full loose can work to not over-stiffen the front.

Thoughts?

Greg

M758

Greg,
I race a an 84 944. This car evolved from an autocross and in fact is quite good as an autocross car with its current hardware set-up. I fell that a slight aligment change is probably required to get the last 2% from the car as it currently set-up for road race.

I have stock steel arms and have never have broken one. I did not cracks in my original stock ones. I replaced these with new ones and new ball jouint for something like $70 in parts from paragon. I have had no issues since, but do have spare set in truck just in case. They cheap enough to do that. I have never see a 944-spec car break one.

Follow my 944-spec page in my signature. There is some good info on car set-up there.

Here is the suspension excerpt

Suspension

Many options so here is what works for me. (You may want it different based on your driving style)

Front

Koni Yellow Sport Shocks, Paragon Products coilover kit with 350lbs springs & camber plates, Weltmeister 28 mm adjustable sway bar, Delrin bushings to cross member, Poly bushings for camberblock, cambermeister strut tower brace. Camber -3.5, Toe 0

Rear

Koni Yellow Sport Shocks, 30 mm solid torsion bars, 22 mm weltmeister sway bar, poly bushings Camber -2.5 A little toe in.

Ride height is as low as you think you can go with the car basically level.



BTW... my 84 Chassis is really hodgepodge of early 944 and 924S parts. I have an 87 924S parts car and most all the parts are swapable.

Skip

Wow! How embarrassing - my one mistake of the year already made on the 2nd of January... this is gonna be a tough year. My apologies

Greg86andahalf

No problem Skip!

I'm please to get so much feedback on my questions.


M758, thanks for th input, I'll take a look at your pages.

Greg

Manning

Jeez Skip, you haven't left yourself much of a buffer have you

Matt

While I think of it, you mentioned front control arm bushings -

If you're going to install plastic aftermarket bushings in the front of the arms (where they pivot from the crossmember), just be careful to get bushings that have a steel sleeve through the center. The early Weltmeister bushings (don't know if they've been changed) didn't have a sleeve, they were just plastic moldings, and they were seriously inadequate.

I found a set of bushings for the early Rabbit (same control arms as our cars) made by Prothane and used them for a while before going to the Racer's Edge sphericals. The Prothane bushings worked well and they were very inexpensive (actually, Prothane sent me some for free to try out and report back on, but I remember the pricing being really reasonable). I'm sure there are other brands also.

Matt

Matt

Greg, to answer your question - yup, I think with the yellow Konis (which I'm also using), Weltmeister swaybars and stock springs/torsion bars you'll be able balance the car any way you want, big understeer, big oversteer or anything in between.

I'd encourage you to begin with the Konis set near or at full soft. These shocks can easily overpower the stock springs/torsion bars. BTW, only the rebound resistance is adjustable, the bump resistance is fixed.

Matt

Matt

While I think of it, you mentioned front control arm bushings -

If you're going to install plastic aftermarket bushings in the front of the arms (where they pivot from the crossmember), just be careful to get bushings that have a steel sleeve through the center. The early Weltmeister bushings (don't know if they've been changed) didn't have a sleeve, they were just plastic moldings, and they were seriously inadequate.

I found a set of bushings for the early Rabbit (same control arms as our cars) made by Prothane and used them for a while before going to the Racer's Edge sphericals. The Prothane bushings worked well and they were very inexpensive (actually, Prothane sent me some for free to try out and report back on, but I remember the pricing being really reasonable). I'm sure there are other brands also.

Matt

Manning

Not only is the bump damping fixed, but it has a nearly flat resistance curve and the resistance is quite low (from graphs I have seen). I'd guess that applies to most single and non adjustable shocks (?)

RedlineMan

Good discussion, all;

I would be a little miffed if the Koni stuff was not up to the standards they had set for themselves for years. Granted, I haven't used them for years (Red Adjustables), but I've never heard any bad reports. I have never heard they were not reliable, so that is distressing. Jason?

I think it is appropriate to note that there is missinformation going around that STEEL control arms a unduly vulnerable to failure. I think most of this misinformation probably comes from DE chairpersons who drive 911s and don't have their facts straight.

I have never seen a failed steel arm, although I know that ANYTHING can exceed its lifespan and fail, especially if you slam into something. It is quite obviously the ALLOY arms that are the big problem. The steel ones can possibly, maybe, under extreme circumstances of poor pre track inspection, fail. That is my opnion on the matter.

The alloy arms can fail in many different ways without any warning whatsoever.

The main difference between the two is that the steel arm will likely give visual evidence of an impending failure long before it does so. Also, you will usually still have 4 wheels on the car if it does!

I have used steel arms for many years with no problems. My current setup uses custom reinforced (by me) steel arms with Leda coilovers running 550lb front springs and Weltmeister front bar. We aint playing here!

As for springing, Matt gave you good advice. What those stiffer springs will do is two-fold, and this is where suspensions start to get counter-intuitive.

When a car is driven beyond the norm (such as SERIOUS A/X or DE), the springs become the main source of roll control. This is not something most people understand. The sway bars are more and more relagated to the roll of balance tuning as the spring rate increases.

So, those 250s will decrease your body roll quite a bit compared to the stock 125+/- toys. However, as Matt pointed out, stiffer front RELATIVE to rear will also increase understeer, which you will find MORE than enough of anyway for autocrossing.

I don't think 250 represents a rate that cannot be compensated for. An adjustable REAR swaybar is MANDATORY for autocrossing, and still helpful for track if you are using narrowly adjustable shocks like Koni or Bilstein. You can also run bigger tires on the front than the rear to lessen rear grip (Hmmmm? Tricky, eh? :-). You can play with tire pressures to make the rear end swing around more, usualy by overinflating the rears. You can run old dead tires back there. You can do tons of things!

Back when I used to A/X "Der Fliegender," I had Reds full stiff with the Weltmeisters. I used to CRANK the rear bar up tight and play toss and catch. If it was a REALLY tight turn, Chop Throttle Oversteer usually brought the *** around.

If I were you I would update the shocks, put on that adjustable rear bar, then go have fun and go learn. save your money till you get a better sense of where to spend it!!

For more info on chassis tuning, check out the articles on my website. Lots of burned up brain cells wen into that!!

The Famous Pilot Emeritus series can be found at:
http://redlinerennsport.homestead.com/DriversEdEd.html

Greg86andahalf

I will be replacing the control arm bushings. I want to stay in SCCA stock class (another reason to fabricate a drop-link plate and use stock sway bar mounting point on the control arm) , so I guess the weltmeister poly bushings can't be used. Is there any control arm bushings besides OEM bushings which would be better but not bright red (noticable to snoops)?

I'm ready to order the 4 Koni sports, bump rubbers and dust covers. also front/rear bushings. I ordered a new set of stock control arms and ball joints today while placing a 928 parts order.

I'm going to wait on the springs. Anything else I should get while I'm ordering?

Thanks,
Greg

Jason @ Paragon Products

John, I guess the best way to put it is that the number of Koni warranty claims we see is very small. I'm sure this isn't the case in Mannings situation, but the demise of many shocks is caused by not running a bump rubber. ALWAYS run a bump rubber or risk destroying your shock.

RedlineMan

Thanks Jason...

I didn't think that there were quality issues. Never heard of any, anyhow.

... and very interesting;

I never thought they'd get compressed that far?! Course, probably not on my car anymore!!