jp944

Armadillos are glorified speed bumps.

Oh boy, now PETA will weigh in on this thread.

jp

v944god

LOL, I already know the real quote, I just re-phrased it better.

Robby

Several things....


1st- Christian- that thread REALLY bothered you huh? Why bash the guy in an ENTIRELY NEW thread? Did you not think enough people would read the initial one? I'm not trying to be a dick- just seems rather odd to me...

2nd- I completely agree w/BOTH Matt's initial posts- very well spoken- Matt H mentioned things that are every bit as dangerous as speeding- you forgot one- FOLLOWING TOO CLOSELY! Bug's the living fu** out of me! Not to mention that driver handbooks (TN for sure) say that ALL drivers should maintain a "proper safety cushion" b/t them & ALL other traffic at ALL times- meaning- not only are you not to follow too closely, BUT, you should leave enough room b/t you on BOTH sides, AND, in front of & behind you (at ALL times) for other's to safely drive, pass, navigate, etc... YOU ALWAYS leave room for driver errors & other misc variables that can cause accidents. ALWAYS...

The 2sec rule- 2 seconds for 60mph- increases w/speed- why 2 seconds? Not sure, but it makes relative sense. Most cars stop from 60mph in <160ft 60mph = 88ft/sec... 2sec @ 60mph = 176ft... Not likely for the car in front of you to stop IMMEDIATELY in 0ft, but, IF you found something in your path, OR, the car in front of you changed lanes to dodge an obstacle, perhaps AND you were ABLE to react IMMEDIATELY, it would take you close to 2 full seconds to stop & an assumed ~150ft.

I've seen a few of Z-man's rants- I will admit that he is correct in sayng that excessive speed IS dangerous- sure, many other things are too, but that doesn't mean we should all jump right up & do them too... I also appreciate his professionalism & courtiousness in dealing w/this issue, even though I think he takes it a little far sometimes, but, he;s trying to make a point... I DO speed. I make no excuses about it. BUT, Z-man's main prob has always seemed to be w/people who say... "well, I raced this guy up to ~140, but...I was safe b/c there weren't any cars for 2 whole miles & I backed off before I hit 150 b/c you know, that's just TOO FAST!" where do you even start w/a statement like that? BUT, we've seen many like that on this list... It's impossible to perfectly describe a situation for other's to judge- also impossible to know EXACTLY how far away other traffic is, or if something else may become an obstacle or how well the other person can drive in an alert mental state or IF he's even IN an alert mental state at the time, or if his car is in perfect condition, not to mention all the little things that MOST of us don't check every single time we drive, etc... I DO TRY to minimize the risks when speeding excessively & I NORMALLY try to stay <~90 (70mph zones) but... does this mean that I'm perfectly safe when doing so? Hell no. There's no way to be PERFECTLY safe while driving PERIOD! Not even on a track, but Z-man's point there is that at least on a track, you've minimized the risks about as well as can possibly be AND, other drivers are there to drive fast too, having the option to leave if they don't want the danger...


National speed limits- Many gov statistics have tried to show that as soon as the limits were raised, that highway wrecks became much more frequent AND fatal- BS! Most states went to 70mph, except for places like Utah, where reasonable & prudent dictated speeds for years until gov funding cuts were too much to ignore. The actual DEATH rate PER accident MIGHT have increased, but, the AMOUNT of accidents in many of these areas actually DECREASED! Just like saying air bags save lives- maybe, but how many people have they injured, etc? They aren't the super wonders they're claimed to be- just more crap to FORCE you to buy... What about stats on ABS? Now ABS REALLY IS an EXCELLENT safety feature for street cars- control in adverse conditions is far superior to non-ABS cars- but, for some reason, ABS didn't seem to have an affect on accidents either way- well, a few years ago, many tests were done to find out why... It seems that many people (especially elderly, but many other's too) never hit the brakes hard enough in intense situations to lock the tires, so the ABS wasn't activated to begin with! WTF!? This was why Mercedes & others started releasing cars w/brake assist w/ABS... What I'm getting at is that most of the statistics have been "manipulated" for a Purpose- $$$!

There was a great article about this in C&D back in '95 or '96 called "And they say speed kills..." It tells how officers were ordered to check boxes indicating that speed was a factor in most accidents, even when it really was NOT- a BIG prob is that HOW it IS a factor is never discussed- the box is just checked...PERIOD. Alcohol was the same way... EX: Car A & car B both come to an intersection at the same time & perpendicularly- A has a stopsign- NOT B. A does NOT even slow down, much less STOP & T-bones B. A has several cases of beer in the backseat, although the driver has NOT consumed a single drink- in this case, a box would be checked indicating that alcohol was involved- well, it WAS present in the wreck, but it was NOT a "contributing factor" yet checking the box that says alcohol was invloved, makes it APPEAR as if alcohol was actually a factor when it clearly was NOT! Well, I guess you COULD argue that, had the guy NOT gone to the store to buy the beer, then the accident would NOT have happened at ALL, so... What if A had been speeding? Would that REALLY have affected ANYTHING? A clearly ran the stopsign & THAT was the SOLE CAUSE! Speed was NOT a factor! Well, IF A were going slower, then A would have approached the intersection a few seconds later, therby missing B, as car B would have already driven through YEAH, RIGHT! ....& if B would have had to slow down b/c that flying cow had dropped something in the road, then the accident might STILL have occured....

~8yrs ago I getting on the interestate- construction- acceleration lane was almost non-existent- the ramp was uphill, so, by the time you had a clear view of traffic, you only had a few feet before the side wall forced you out into traffic. I had been stopped at the stoplight at the bottom of the hill- the total distance from the light to the end of the accel lane was ~1/4 mile. NO one, not ONE single car got on the ramp in front of me & I saw NO traffic all the way up- it was a clear view- there HAD been a wreck about midway up- one cop w/3 cars lined up, off to the side, on the wide shoulder of the ramp- it didn't concern me, so I paid it no attention when the light turned green- I did NOT rubber-neck it! I accelerated as I passed the scene, as I knew, the only way to safely merge was to have speed by the time I crested the hill & I had hit ~50mph, when, low & befu**inghold, there was a Camero sitting there! Just sitting there, waiting for a written invitation to merge- if I hadn't rear ended his *** he'd probably STILL be there! I couldn't BELIEVE IT! He HAD to be sitting up there for at LEAST one solid minute b/c I had watched ahead & saw NO ONE get on that ramp in front of me- NO ONE! Not FU**ING ONE! Part of the prob was, at the top of the hill, it actually crested & started back down slightly & to the right, which really obscured him good- but, it was a fu**ing 'MERGE LANE' NOT a 'STOP, STICK YOUR FINGER UP YOUR *** FOR AWHILE, REST, & TURN RIGHT LANE!' Yes, I'm pissed off- & its been 8yrs! UNREAL! You'd have to be there... Hell, when cresting the hill, I was acclerating & looking back over my left shoulder, like any OTHER moron would have been doing- you know, to MERGE into 70mph traffic! So the IMBECILE to the RIGHT REALLY wasn't in my line of sight- I KNOW I should have paid more attention, etc, but DAMN! The ******* was a young kid (no offense to ANYone) who was from out of town & NO DOUBT checked out the other WRECK as he was driving by, crested the hill & realized that he was going too slow & he just STOPPED! He said to me "man, I saw you in my rearview mirror- you were turning your wheel to the right when you saw me- you were trying to cut out into traffic- DAMN DUDE!" Yeah- nuckinfuts huh? I was trying to MERGE onto an interestate from a MERGE LANE- WTF was I thinking!? Anyway, sorry for the rant, BUT... The cop did NOT cite me, BUT, he listed the reason for the accident as...get this.... "FOLLOWING TOO CLOSELY" UNREAL! Yeah, I was following too closely- that's like having 2 people in seperate cars going to the zoo- one car goes on direction & the other car goes another & they get to the zoo at the same time & someone saying- so & so followed so & so to the zoo- yeah, & they need to move in w/the primates....

A friend rear ended someone one day- I was in the car- ridiculous wreck-going SOOOO SLOW- had just started raining- REALLY slick- greasy-like- locked 'em up, didn't pump his brakes & rear-ended the Cherokee in
front of us- the cop sighted him- "failure to yeild" Sure, the accident was HIS fault, but failure to yeild? My point w/all of this is: the boxes checked by these people are subject error for all kinds of reasons! Statistical patterns are based on these things & THAT is what tells you things like "SPEED KILLS." Sure, any idiot would tell you that you have a better chance of surviving a crash from a slower speed OR that you generally have better car control at slower speeds OR that ecessive speed is more risky than running the speed limit, but, it's all for a myriad of reasons & it's ALL SITUATIONAL! No two situations are IDENTICAL!

turbo944

Okay....speeding. This is a VERY delicate issue as we can see already. Is it right or wrong? It's a traffic violation. In places for driving far enough above the limit, it is a criminal offense and can result in jail time. Now, I look at other who drive every single day. MOST of them, I mean probably 95% of them, do not follow a great deal of other traffic laws. Not signaling, driving in the left lane all the time, etc. So do I consider speeding right? Nope, but it's my one fault and I try to do it reasonably and properly when I do it, whether it's 5mph over or 50mph over.

Speaking of which, Nevada was mentioned, but I think a very good example is Montana. The speed limit there was "reasonable and proper" and at night, was like 55mph. Now I thought that was a good idea for the daytime as there are times on the interstate when 90mph might not be a good idea and when it's not, you need to be cited. It was government highway funding threatened to them to put a specific speed limit in place. It had worked for them for ages and from what I've heard, reasonable and proper is still what's usually enforced. The reason for the speed limit at night? Because the headlights on most cars cannot safely provide enough illumination to stop going faster than that and moose can really tear up a car.

The reason for some speed limits? Well, it has been shown in studies that speed limits are usually set below the safety threshold for that road. I know some roads that in some cars the speed limit would be a wild ride, though!

In Montana it was shown that people were driving on average around 80mph or where they were comfortable as someone else I think mentioned. Now, around here this means that on a stretch near my home where the speed limit is 55 that people drive about 60-65. It shifts (without a large change in the amount of businesses/residences on either side of the road) to 45 and people still drive 60-65 when I slow down to about 55. When the speed limit stays 45 at the top of the next hill and you come into slightly more businesses, they drop to 45-50, sometimes even less. That same road the other direction into another town drops to 35 and people still drive 45-55 over a great deal of it. No matter that it's a reckless driving ticket at 15mph over in TN, they do it anyway because they want to hurry and they are comfortable. Even in a hurry if they weren't comfortable, they would go a bit slower.

Now, in California, a fellow on the MKIV Supra list got out of a ticket going 50 in a 35 zone because the law upheld what he was doing. On certain roads in CA if you have a) good driving skill, b) a capable vehicle, and c) a safe road with good visibility, you can drive over the speed limit up to 55mph. He took his racing school certificate, a copy of R&T showing the Supra to be called one of the best handling cars on Earth, and reports showing that this road was one of the safer roads in the state and he was let out of the ticket as it was a sunny day with no pedestrians or even really much else in the way of traffic. So, they recognize at times that driving over a posted limit CAN be safe. Even up to 20mph over.....

Now, the interstates in most places outside of cities are plenty safe for almost any vehicle in good condition to travel 75-80mph and faster. The problem isn't the roads for travelling at 100mph which could be very safe, it's the drivers and their vehicle's condition. Most driver's aren't capable of reacting properly at 70, let alone 100mph. Especially those distracted by other things like those already mentioned, cell phones, food/drink, screaming kids, etc. Most vehicles conditions are ignored by the average motorist as well. Poor tires with too many miles, worn out suspension, etc. etc. etc. So most people and most vehicles aren't suited to high speed travel as it exists right now. So speed limits aren't likely to go up.

Why? Simple. Because here driving is much more needed than in Germany where you must be both older and pay many, many times as much as you have to here for a license. Yes, we could reduce accidents by having those requirements, but it would also force many people on smaller incomes to not be able to drive (legally) and thus would make it impossible for them to go to the store, to work, etc. There are many cars in this state that I know people have paid as much for as it costs to get a license in Germany and that car is nowhere near safe for driving at 70, let alone faster speeds. There is no public transportation here and it's easy to be many miles from where you work which leaves almost no way to get there without a car.

Now, for those of us who do own high performance automobiles and who do exercise reasonable and proper judgment and take care of our cars and we do manage our risks and distractions while we do operate our vehicles out of the regular regime, taking consideration for others, for animals, etc. it can be made very safe. There are roads in this country where you could drive for hours at 100mph and not even pass another car and where you can see for great long distances. Why shouldn't I? Yes, it's illegal, but I watch police do a LOT of traffic violation maneuvers and see them let many others get by with them every day, so if I have to sit a radar detector on my dash to help avoid a run in with them, so what. Doesn't make it right for me because they do things that are wrong and let others get away with it, but it's my risk in those conditions. There are times I will take my car to 100-110 and right back down in a safe area. Just to get up there and back. No traffic, plenty of visibility on both sides of the road, nice weather. I still risk getting a ticket, but that's my risk. I don't speed excessively or otherwise in heavy traffic.

Now, as to the safety aspect, I've seen people walk away from crashes in street cars from over 100mph. It's also possible to hit an old person at 5mph and the shock be just right with a medical condition that they have to kill them. So, the basic is down to Speed Kills (yes, it's the sudden stop at the end), but if we didn't move, we would never speed, and thus people wouldn't die. Yes, it's an exaggaration, but truthful at its core. If no cars were to move, then no one would die in a car accident. Since cars do move, people will die. Now, take a listing of REAL fatal car crashes and look at their causes and where they took place and at what velocity. Look at contributing factors. What do you find? I don't know as I haven't done it yet. But I think we'd probably find that most fatal accidents are related to the fact that driver or vehicle wasn't capable of travelling the velocity that it was when the accident occurred. That weather and road conditions and visibility was poor in many of them. So, if you work to eliminate those areas, high speed travel could be very safe. Good weather doesn't guarantee it though. People in good weather are more likely to let themselves be distracted by things outside their car, by the phone, etc. So still being around others and driving at high speed is not safe. The person who mentioned nearly hitting the slow Caddy.....well, the top 5% and bottom 5% of people's speed are where MOST accidents occur from some statistics I've heard. Especially when they come in contact with one another. However he mentioned visibility as being a hindrance in his driving at that time if I remember right. 70mph was excessive on that road at that time as you can't see. 100 would be very unsafe. If the straight before was safe for 70, it doesn't mean that the blind corner at the end of the straight is. I had to put my Saturn in a ditch earlier this year even at the speed limit as a woman had stopped completely in a blind corner in the rain. She was cited and not me. Heck, I pretty well saved both cars from almost any damage by driving into the yard beside the road. Had she been even going 5mph, there wouldn't have been a problem, but I've slowed down further in that corner since which was already driving at the speed limit for that corner. It was not safe there for the stopping distance.

I don't advocate street racing as when you find someone on the street in their car, you don't get to see their driving record, how safe they are, how safe their car is or just how many stupid things they'll do in order to try and win. I used to do it until after I started driving on the track and once you learn out there, you start really noticing the little stupid things people do even driving at 70mph. I don't like being around others on the road. They are dangerous. I don't ever linger beside a car I'm passing on the interstate or anytime I can avoid it.

Anyway, before I get too far, just realize and plan out and be safe and you can speed with a high chance of success and safety without endangering anyone but yourself if anything should happen. Yes, there are places and times you shouldn't and yes, you should slow down then. Otherwise just realize that those of us that do want to if we do it in safe circumstances can do it. I have heard in Nevada that even still, speeding there up to about 100mph is more a waste of gas ticket than a speeding ticket if they stop you.

So, just be safe out there however fast you ever drive.....

Robby

I can, I can....

"Sometimes ya just gotta say...WTF!?"

"Make your move...."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So, your parent's are out of town. WTF? If you can't say it....you can't DO it..."

"great- so you've done the old man's car bit...." While reading the paper... "'my daddy used to spank my bare bottom...now he's gone.....will YOU take his place?"

"Joel....get off the baby sitter....don't throw your life away like this..."

"Time of your life...huh kid?"

"A couple of boy's in daddy's car..."

"GREAT! I've got a Trig midterm tomorrow & I'm being chased by Gueedo the killer pimp...."

"I think I'm gonna throw up Joel....I think I'm gonna throw up on YOU Joel..."

"SO....Who's the U-boat commander?"

And finally....last but not least, but DEFINATELY the most appropriate for THIS forumn....

"PORSCHE....THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE!"

I think I should win a prize for that last one...How about it? Everyone on all the forumns want to pitch in & send me $10 each? I promise to split all the cash I get w/John D for providing this list...." Come on....guys? Hey, it worked for that chick who had the credit card dept- just start a website & people paid it off. IF I could just get everyone in the country to send me a penny... OKAY- how about this- everyone here send me a dime....?

David Ray

142mph

Luis de Prat

June 20th, 1999. I was cruising down a tree lined city avenue at about 45 mph with my gf when a huge tree branch came crashing down on the car and nearly killed us.

Sure, speed can kill, but so can a whole slew of other things too. They just can't be harnessed as a revenue generator, like Bill pointed out. Here's another movie quote:
"show me the money!"

89magic98

Adrial,

I was just back in NY.

WTF did they do to 287 between the Sprain Brook Parkway and White Plains?!?! This is not progress. On that section of road, I fully support 45MPH speed limit because they have pretty much destroyed the road with the construction work they did on it.

Kevin

Duke

I think it's very ignorant to say it's reckless driving just because your speed is above a stated number, regardless of the circumstances.

As many others have pointed out, speeding on a desert highway a perfectly bright summer morning at 04:30 am is NOTHING compared to all those !%&&/#¤"#!"# freaks driving around during weekends with NO control WHAT SO EVER of their own car or the surroundings.

Stop whining! Things are not always black or white!

Matt H

Things are not but speeding sure is. I never said wreckless was black and white (because to me it isnt). However, if there is a posted speed limit and it is not an emergency (wife in labor, dying man in car, etc). Then you are either over or under said limit. Black/White.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

turbo944

Actually, too far below that limit is also another black/white. In MOST places that I've seen, 15mph BELOW the limit is also reckless driving....so slowing way down on a 45mph road to 25mph to look at a new Porsche parked beside the road could also net you a reckless driving ticket if the officer was so inclined....but this side of it you rarely see enforced.

Rich Sandor

Being over/under the speed limit does NOT correlate to being safe/unsafe.

It correlates to being legal/illegal.

Safety is NEVER a black/white issue - it always depends on many things.

In the aviation industry, safety as you can imagine, is paramount, above all else. We as pilots are taught that accidents never happen because of ONE THING. Many small things compound to create an accident.

Speeding alone will not cause an accident. Add water, alcohol, blind corner, deer, etc etc CAN cause an accident. In fact, take away the speeding - guess what? You can still have an accident!

There is no "fine line" between safe an unsafe. It just kinda gets more "unsafe" the dumber your mistakes are.

Matt H

Rich - I think you got my point.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

Robby

Yeah, I've got a good example of this... one night I was driving on the freeway- avg b/t 70 & 90- clear & cool w/good visibilty (lot's of lights, etc), etc- great conditions for night driving- LIGHT traffic- mostly just truckers- I go by a few 18-wheelers- went by one who was on my right, so I shift to the far left lane- glance up ahead & notice a car ~1/4 mile in the distance- I look back to my stereo (trying to adjust settings) & only a second or two later, I notice I'm drifting slightly into the middle lane- as I pull back, I notice that I'm gaining on a car- FAST! ~1 sec later I realize that this guy is almost fu**ing STOPPED! I BLOW by him as if I'm doing ~130... I swear it looked like he was going <10mph- There is NO WAY he was going >20mph- no possible way! I would say ~10mph, but don't want to exxagerate- a gold mid 90's Maxima- it stuck in my mind- if I had paid attention to the stereo just another ~2 seconds I very well could have hit him- so, I'm looking at him in my rearview, slightly shocked- I just ASSUMED he was drunk- I'm going uphill & just a few seconds later, I notice a truck coming up behind him & think to myself "THAT guy's going to cause a WRECK!" I can SEE it coming right up on him- kind of like a TIDAL wave about to break on a surfer- nothing I could do- I was AHEAD of them- it was the SAME 18-wheeler I had passed not 15 seconds before. At the last instant, the trucker realized it & TRIED to go around- I'm watching this CLEARLY through my rearview as if it were a TV screen- probably lucky I didn't run into the wall or something myself- anyway, the trucks send the car HARD right, straight into the wall- the trailer starts to come around despite the counter-steering- it jack-knifed on him- an INREDIBLE sight- the HUGE-*** trailer was just sliding along, completly perpendicular to the cab- for ~2 full seconds until it turned on over onto it's side- it was still sliding w/sparks flying, etc, ~2 MORE sec later when I crested the hill & lost sight- I was close enough to it all to hear it WELL- I actually FELT it slightly- it was amazing- NO DOUBT who's fault it was, but being a rear-ender, I KNEW how it would LOOK, so I turned around- it took me a little bit to get back- cops were already there , traffic backed up, etc- truck laying on it's side- AMAZING how big they look like that- I eventually got a call from an insurance company- I'm sure my statements helped the trucker....evidently, no one got hurt- that probably amazed me more than anything else about the incident...

ANYWAY, that's the prob w/going TOO SLOW- SURE, that example's EXTREME, but most people EXPECT other's to be speeding- at LEAST slightly, but, to be going SLOWER than the speed limit is much less common, so is more of a shock- it's EASY to see how 130+ could cause probs when everyone else is running ~70mph... BUT, I DO HONESTLY BELIEVE that there are situations where those speeds can HONESTLY be exceeded, even on public roads, under certain circumstances, w/RELATIVE safety...

A BIG prob is that not everyone is capable of driving such speeds- BUT- show me just ONE person who will admit that HE is NOT capable- ESPECIALLY GUY'S- driving seems to be some sort of STAPLE of manhood or something & many guy's will get REALLY testy when questioned about their driving abilities... I would personally like to see some sort of level system for drivers licenses- the highest level could have a reasonable & prudent condition to their speeds- might SEEM stupid, but, if done well, it MIGHT work- one could go to a driving school / car control clinic, like Bob Bondurant or Skip Barber, etc, & get several days of instruction- accident avoidance, tire blow-out practice, spin control, etc & ONLY AFTER PASSING a test (both written AND driven) could they be allowed to pass & get their special license- it would have to be a VERY good class & not TOO expensive... I know, it would have many kinks to work out & is a strange concept, BUT.... in my own little Utopia where every road is PERFECT & I drive whatever car I want at the moment w/as many HOT girls as I can fit into it, w/a wallet that can never empty, etc....

sweanders

A similar thread is going on the 928 list as well:

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=100768