914-6 Rebuild/Value Question
08-01-2007, 06:31 PM
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914-6 Rebuild/Value Question
I posted this a few years back and I wanted to get some new opinions.
My brother has an original '70 or '71 914-6 that he has stored in a barn since 1986. It's only got approx 70k miles but it has had the transmission replaced due to an accident back in the late 70's. The car has been repainted but needs to be done again along with removing some scratches/dents (it was orange, now it's black), it has fuchs, the interior needs to be redone (leather is brittle to the touch), he's tried to turn the motor over and it doesn't seem to want to turn over, and it has a cracked windshield. As for rust, he has not mentioned any but let's assume that there is minor rust in the usual places.
What's it worth as is?
Also, He's pondering shipping it off to a P-car restorer along with $30k and getting it redone to near original condition. I recommended that he might be better off getting someone to fix the body and interior, replace the motor with a used or rebuilt non-original motor, get the rest of the stuff fixed at non-concours but acceptable levels, and drive it when it's done. His kids are almost all through college now so he's looking for a car that he can drive. Can anyone ballpark what a rebuild like this would cost? Would it be cheaper? Can you recommend anyone?
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
My brother has an original '70 or '71 914-6 that he has stored in a barn since 1986. It's only got approx 70k miles but it has had the transmission replaced due to an accident back in the late 70's. The car has been repainted but needs to be done again along with removing some scratches/dents (it was orange, now it's black), it has fuchs, the interior needs to be redone (leather is brittle to the touch), he's tried to turn the motor over and it doesn't seem to want to turn over, and it has a cracked windshield. As for rust, he has not mentioned any but let's assume that there is minor rust in the usual places.
What's it worth as is?
Also, He's pondering shipping it off to a P-car restorer along with $30k and getting it redone to near original condition. I recommended that he might be better off getting someone to fix the body and interior, replace the motor with a used or rebuilt non-original motor, get the rest of the stuff fixed at non-concours but acceptable levels, and drive it when it's done. His kids are almost all through college now so he's looking for a car that he can drive. Can anyone ballpark what a rebuild like this would cost? Would it be cheaper? Can you recommend anyone?
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
08-01-2007, 06:51 PM
#3
I know of a nearly perfect, very well maintained, complete, all original silver 914/6 with 48,000 miles here in San Antonio that could be had for $30K. Might suggest that he sell what he has for whatever he can get for it and use those funds toward something like this one rather than taking on a money pit project. If he decides to sell, it would be well worth it to spend a grand to at least get it running. WAG would be in the $12K range, if running- lots of variables, though.
-Jim
-Jim
08-02-2007, 11:10 AM
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Restoring a car is a losing money venture. I would rather sell the car, and then buy a 914-6 for 20K that is already done. Then he will have 10K to do DE events and small up grades on the car!
08-02-2007, 12:38 PM
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A VERY rough but original 914/6 (as opposed to a /6 conversion) just sold in Indiana for over $13K...
If it had been in California, I would bet it would have brought closer to $20K...
IF the rust worm has not destroyed the chassis... $8K to go thru the engine, $8K to return paint to original and nice condition, $8K to get all of the bits and pieces to redo the interior, wiring, etc. etc.
sooo... $24K, and that is with the owner doing some of the easy work himself. (disassembly and reassembly of the 'light" stuff... bumpers, interior, muffler and so forth...
IF it has been severely eaten by the Rust Worm, it can still be restored, but throw in another $10K for the cut and replace...
Now you have $34K in the car...which is exactly what a nicely restored original /6 can be purchased for today...
But, it is "His" car... sentimental value is worth something, and he has the benefit of knowing what actually went into the car... vs. buying the proverbial "Unknown". A friend of mine bought what appeared to be, and really was, a very nicely restored /6... and has still put over $10K into just sorting out the "little' things...engine oil leaks, tranny shifting issues, new windshield (don't ask!), and the beat goes on!!!
So, there are a few questions to ask... Does he have access to competent shops where he can check on the progress at least monthly? If not, sell it as is and buy a finished example! Sending the car out of your site is like sending a kid off to school... if you can't touch them, you don't have a real clue as to what is or is not happening with them! Yes, there are great restoration shops...and they charge unbelievably large prices to do what they do... You won't get one of them to redo a /6 for $30K... that will be just the Deposit! Does he have the skills, time and patience to do most of the work himself? A great and satisfying project! BUT, if he can't do it, don't start, as it will drive him crazy!
As to the rust issue, jack it up and pull off the passenger side rear wheel and rocker panel... take an ice pick and go at all of the underlying metal you can see... if the ice pick goes thru, the metal is gone. Double the size of any area that you "think" is bad... it will be! Pull out the Passenger seat and carpets and back pad, and start ice picking the floor pan and rear bulkhead... same thing applies! Pull up the carpets over the footwells and do the same... then pull out the rear trunk mat(s) and start ice picking at the rear of the trunk and work forward... Ice pick the sail panels from the body line, up. Then jack up the front end and ice pick all of the suspension mounting areas...then pull the drivers side rocker panel and rear wheel and repeat the process...
DO NOT BE GENTLE... he needs to know the truth, and the car has to be repainted in any case, so jab it hard...if it goes thru, that area needs replacement...
In truth, if he is not "Emotionally Attached" to this car, sell it and buy a nice rust free (galvanized, you know!) 1980 thru 1989 911SC or Carrera... These are "Real" Porsches (sorry, couldn't help myself!), and are much more drivable and enjoyable in many ways... DE's, Cruising, Concours, you name it. They start, they run well, they last forever with routine maintenance, and you can buy the best of the bunch for $20 to $30K!!! Sometimes even less!
If it had been in California, I would bet it would have brought closer to $20K...
IF the rust worm has not destroyed the chassis... $8K to go thru the engine, $8K to return paint to original and nice condition, $8K to get all of the bits and pieces to redo the interior, wiring, etc. etc.
sooo... $24K, and that is with the owner doing some of the easy work himself. (disassembly and reassembly of the 'light" stuff... bumpers, interior, muffler and so forth...
IF it has been severely eaten by the Rust Worm, it can still be restored, but throw in another $10K for the cut and replace...
Now you have $34K in the car...which is exactly what a nicely restored original /6 can be purchased for today...
But, it is "His" car... sentimental value is worth something, and he has the benefit of knowing what actually went into the car... vs. buying the proverbial "Unknown". A friend of mine bought what appeared to be, and really was, a very nicely restored /6... and has still put over $10K into just sorting out the "little' things...engine oil leaks, tranny shifting issues, new windshield (don't ask!), and the beat goes on!!!
So, there are a few questions to ask... Does he have access to competent shops where he can check on the progress at least monthly? If not, sell it as is and buy a finished example! Sending the car out of your site is like sending a kid off to school... if you can't touch them, you don't have a real clue as to what is or is not happening with them! Yes, there are great restoration shops...and they charge unbelievably large prices to do what they do... You won't get one of them to redo a /6 for $30K... that will be just the Deposit! Does he have the skills, time and patience to do most of the work himself? A great and satisfying project! BUT, if he can't do it, don't start, as it will drive him crazy!
As to the rust issue, jack it up and pull off the passenger side rear wheel and rocker panel... take an ice pick and go at all of the underlying metal you can see... if the ice pick goes thru, the metal is gone. Double the size of any area that you "think" is bad... it will be! Pull out the Passenger seat and carpets and back pad, and start ice picking the floor pan and rear bulkhead... same thing applies! Pull up the carpets over the footwells and do the same... then pull out the rear trunk mat(s) and start ice picking at the rear of the trunk and work forward... Ice pick the sail panels from the body line, up. Then jack up the front end and ice pick all of the suspension mounting areas...then pull the drivers side rocker panel and rear wheel and repeat the process...
DO NOT BE GENTLE... he needs to know the truth, and the car has to be repainted in any case, so jab it hard...if it goes thru, that area needs replacement...
In truth, if he is not "Emotionally Attached" to this car, sell it and buy a nice rust free (galvanized, you know!) 1980 thru 1989 911SC or Carrera... These are "Real" Porsches (sorry, couldn't help myself!), and are much more drivable and enjoyable in many ways... DE's, Cruising, Concours, you name it. They start, they run well, they last forever with routine maintenance, and you can buy the best of the bunch for $20 to $30K!!! Sometimes even less!
08-02-2007, 01:44 PM
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Wow, thanks for the informative post!
I'll try and address all of your questions. First off, in the early 70's he owned quite a few different P-cars including: 356, 911, 914 and 914-6. My other brother had a 912 in the early 70's so that pretty much covers the models. The only one he wanted to keep was the 914-6 and he's owned it since 1976, so, he's pretty attached to it and doesn't want an SC or a Carrera model (I agree with you though...).
The "ballpark" estimate of $30k was from one of his personal friends that owns a shop (and has repaired a few 6's) about 1000 miles from his house. Therefore, he wouldn't be able to see the car or view the progress other than by pictures. He trusts the guy so he'd probably be fair with him. However, to your point, he doesn't want to get into a situation where the cost balloons up well over $30k.
As for the rust level of the car, I'll have to wait for my next trip to NY to check that out. He's too busy this time of year to mess with it.
So if it's not completely rusted out, and it's not running, it should still bring around $10k?
I'll try and address all of your questions. First off, in the early 70's he owned quite a few different P-cars including: 356, 911, 914 and 914-6. My other brother had a 912 in the early 70's so that pretty much covers the models. The only one he wanted to keep was the 914-6 and he's owned it since 1976, so, he's pretty attached to it and doesn't want an SC or a Carrera model (I agree with you though...).
The "ballpark" estimate of $30k was from one of his personal friends that owns a shop (and has repaired a few 6's) about 1000 miles from his house. Therefore, he wouldn't be able to see the car or view the progress other than by pictures. He trusts the guy so he'd probably be fair with him. However, to your point, he doesn't want to get into a situation where the cost balloons up well over $30k.
As for the rust level of the car, I'll have to wait for my next trip to NY to check that out. He's too busy this time of year to mess with it.
So if it's not completely rusted out, and it's not running, it should still bring around $10k?
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08-02-2007, 07:02 PM
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So if it's not completely rusted out, and it's not running, it should still bring around $10k?
Absolutely... Any less than $10K and someone is stealing that car. Although the value may be a bit less for it in New York (I'm originally from Oswego; 7 feet of snow every winter and all that!) than it would be if it were sitting in LA, I would put a Minimum Bid on it for $12K, and chances are he will get a bit more... obviously, the more "Spit and Polish" he can put to it, the better...
Suggestion: Pull the sparkplugs and put a shot of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder... Let it set for a bit and then get a wrench on the end of the crank and work it back and forth... don't try to be an 800 lb Gorilla... just easy back and forth, and see how it "feels". If rings are stuck, you don't want to break them and scrape them up and down the cylinder walls... then the next day come back and give each cylinder a good spray of PB Blaster... Same deal... Let it sit for an hour or two, and then go and work it back and forth, with more pressure in the natural running direction of the motor... Day three, come back and shoot a dose of Carb Cleaner into each cylinder...Same drill... let it set for a couple of hours, and back on the wrench. If that "Cocktail" doesn't loosen it up, something is bad broke in there, and the next owner is going to have to pull it apart in any case. If it does loosen up, drain the sludge out of the case and oil tank, and refill it with a light weight Petroleum oil (NOT synthetic!!!), and a half bottle of GM EOS, which is an assembly lubricant. S/b able to get it at most any large GM dealer. Put a SMALL squirt of the EOS in each cylinder, put the plugs back in, and pull the coil wire so it can't fire. Disconnect the fuel lines, and turn it over to build up oil pressure, using the starter. This will get the fresh oil moving around a bit, and should kick most of the "Crap" out of the cylinders.
I suspect the Carbs are completely jelled up with old varnish/gas, but at least he could then sell it with "Engine Free", which always gives a buyer hope, and on this project, that is all a buyer is getting! Whereabouts in NY is he located?
Absolutely... Any less than $10K and someone is stealing that car. Although the value may be a bit less for it in New York (I'm originally from Oswego; 7 feet of snow every winter and all that!) than it would be if it were sitting in LA, I would put a Minimum Bid on it for $12K, and chances are he will get a bit more... obviously, the more "Spit and Polish" he can put to it, the better...
Suggestion: Pull the sparkplugs and put a shot of Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder... Let it set for a bit and then get a wrench on the end of the crank and work it back and forth... don't try to be an 800 lb Gorilla... just easy back and forth, and see how it "feels". If rings are stuck, you don't want to break them and scrape them up and down the cylinder walls... then the next day come back and give each cylinder a good spray of PB Blaster... Same deal... Let it sit for an hour or two, and then go and work it back and forth, with more pressure in the natural running direction of the motor... Day three, come back and shoot a dose of Carb Cleaner into each cylinder...Same drill... let it set for a couple of hours, and back on the wrench. If that "Cocktail" doesn't loosen it up, something is bad broke in there, and the next owner is going to have to pull it apart in any case. If it does loosen up, drain the sludge out of the case and oil tank, and refill it with a light weight Petroleum oil (NOT synthetic!!!), and a half bottle of GM EOS, which is an assembly lubricant. S/b able to get it at most any large GM dealer. Put a SMALL squirt of the EOS in each cylinder, put the plugs back in, and pull the coil wire so it can't fire. Disconnect the fuel lines, and turn it over to build up oil pressure, using the starter. This will get the fresh oil moving around a bit, and should kick most of the "Crap" out of the cylinders.
I suspect the Carbs are completely jelled up with old varnish/gas, but at least he could then sell it with "Engine Free", which always gives a buyer hope, and on this project, that is all a buyer is getting! Whereabouts in NY is he located?
08-09-2007, 04:47 PM
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1986951, thanks for your very thorough post. Sorry I didn't reply back sooner. I have forwarded your suggestions to my brother and I'll keep you posted as to how it turns out. He's located in Orange County, NY.
08-09-2007, 05:12 PM
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Ahhhh! Does he know the Motorcycle folks? Orange County Choppers, of TV fame and fortune!
A bit too far from my old homestead, or I would go and help him examine the /6 to see what the major issues are. Love to hear what he finds out! Pictures are always fun, as well!
A bit too far from my old homestead, or I would go and help him examine the /6 to see what the major issues are. Love to hear what he finds out! Pictures are always fun, as well!
08-09-2007, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 1986951
Ahhhh! Does he know the Motorcycle folks? Orange County Choppers, of TV fame and fortune!
A bit too far from my old homestead, or I would go and help him examine the /6 to see what the major issues are. Love to hear what he finds out! Pictures are always fun, as well!
A bit too far from my old homestead, or I would go and help him examine the /6 to see what the major issues are. Love to hear what he finds out! Pictures are always fun, as well!
All the OCC guys went to my high school and their shop is only a couple of miles from my brother's house. Vinnie's older brother was one of my best friends growing up and the first motorcycle I rode (and laid on its side) was Vinnie's XR200. It's a small world...
08-09-2007, 11:27 PM
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WOW!
It really IS a small world! I suspect Paulie and Mikey may have been a couple of handfuls when they were in school! Vinnie and the rest of the bunch act fairly "Normal" but I can see the other two being the kids we all shunned as being too far out of it to get invited to anyone's graduation party, and then crashing the party anyway!!!
BTW, the first bike I laid down was a Harley Davidson 250 Sport Bike that was made in Italy! I guess somebody convinced Harley to try and import something to compete with the Jap invasion, back in the day. This 250 was a joke! A friend of mine got it for practically nothing, and after I wrecked it, it was worth less than nothing! It's a wonder I'm still in one piece to tell the tail! But... I did learn to ride on it, and it let me progress to bigger and better machinery... finally finished up with a Honda 650 Silverwing... nice cruising bike... fast enough and very comfortable to ride long distances!
Current wife decided that bikes weren't for her, so I went back to Porsches!
It really IS a small world! I suspect Paulie and Mikey may have been a couple of handfuls when they were in school! Vinnie and the rest of the bunch act fairly "Normal" but I can see the other two being the kids we all shunned as being too far out of it to get invited to anyone's graduation party, and then crashing the party anyway!!!
BTW, the first bike I laid down was a Harley Davidson 250 Sport Bike that was made in Italy! I guess somebody convinced Harley to try and import something to compete with the Jap invasion, back in the day. This 250 was a joke! A friend of mine got it for practically nothing, and after I wrecked it, it was worth less than nothing! It's a wonder I'm still in one piece to tell the tail! But... I did learn to ride on it, and it let me progress to bigger and better machinery... finally finished up with a Honda 650 Silverwing... nice cruising bike... fast enough and very comfortable to ride long distances!
Current wife decided that bikes weren't for her, so I went back to Porsches!
08-22-2007, 08:06 PM
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10 is around what I was thinking too. Much less than that, and I would consider just parting it if he is in it for the money. If he wants the car to go to a good home sell it for $9-11K.
