Ashes to ashes, rust to rust (a lesson in chemistry -oxidation..)
06-02-2004, 06:49 AM
#1
The Hoffinator
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Ashes to ashes, rust to rust (a lesson in chemistry -oxidation..)
we talk about rust often when looking for one of these cars. here we see an extreme rust bucket.. sure no sane man would buy a car in this shape, but this can teach us many things.
1st, it shows us specific areas to look for rust. 2nd, if you look closely you can see reminants of shoddy and unsecessful repair work. this can show you some things to look out for as far as repairs go on cars youre looking at (ie.. what not to buy) 3rd, you say your car is rust free? .. notice all the lil nooks and cranies in these pics where you wouldnt think to look for rust.. have you looked in these areas on your car? can you even get into these areas to check it out? somthing to think about!
so for your horror and amazement i present to you one rusty swb 912.
WARNING: do not look at this if you have a heart condition, are pregnant, have a weak stomach, or are subject to epileptic seisures.
1st, it shows us specific areas to look for rust. 2nd, if you look closely you can see reminants of shoddy and unsecessful repair work. this can show you some things to look out for as far as repairs go on cars youre looking at (ie.. what not to buy) 3rd, you say your car is rust free? .. notice all the lil nooks and cranies in these pics where you wouldnt think to look for rust.. have you looked in these areas on your car? can you even get into these areas to check it out? somthing to think about!
so for your horror and amazement i present to you one rusty swb 912.
WARNING: do not look at this if you have a heart condition, are pregnant, have a weak stomach, or are subject to epileptic seisures.
Cancer is saddest when it happens to the ones we love 
06-23-2004, 02:07 AM
#6
Three Wheelin'
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Harry, I comment because of the question I posted on the 911 board and you directed me here.
What these pix unfortunately remind me? Much as I LOVE the early 911/912 bodies...why would I rationally expect that ANY of them from the pre-galvanized era are without rust and probably serious rust in some of the worst places? I would truly love to buy an early style and dote on it permanently, but I always think, "What if it has serious rust I don't find until much later?" And there's no good answer.
What these pix unfortunately remind me? Much as I LOVE the early 911/912 bodies...why would I rationally expect that ANY of them from the pre-galvanized era are without rust and probably serious rust in some of the worst places? I would truly love to buy an early style and dote on it permanently, but I always think, "What if it has serious rust I don't find until much later?" And there's no good answer.
06-23-2004, 04:58 AM
#7
The Hoffinator
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Dan,
a 95% rust free car is not hard to find if you look in the right places. you are in one of the right places. all will have some surcface rust hiding somewhere. surface rust can be delt with, its the rot you want to stay away from. if you buy a bastardised 912, you will get just that.. a bastard. if you get one thats been taken care of, well maintained, and get a ppi from the right place you will be ok.
the key is to make sure its well checked out in all the right places. a propper look in all the right places will give you the answer yuo are looking for: What if it has serious rust I don't find until much later?" if you buy the right car, and make an intelligent choice, you should have no problems unless you dont take care of it and propperly store it (ie dont drive it durring the winter where they salt the roads.. and dont store it in a swamp... ie.. your in dry sunny so cal.. so i will have a harder time finding a rust free car in ohio, than you would finding a swiss cheese 912, but still make an intelligent and thought out and well researched purchase!!!)
buy with your head not your heart.
get in touch with Jeff Trask, John Benton, or any one of the real gurus on the 912 registry. they are all in so cal. they will tell you who to go to in your area, and if not, im sure they can help check some stuff out or give some good leads.
ok.. i really didnt want to go indepth, but i want to make sure you get a good car, so you have to know what you are getting into. here is basically 912 101.. most things you need to keep your eye on, in case you arent familar
4 big things to look at
1 body.. rust..
2 engine
3 suspension
4 other ****
1) rust.
rust is somthing you dont learn to recognize over night. nor is it somthing you learn by pictures, or online. i suggest you contact them before you see it. i dont want to see you go over your head. usually someone buys a 912 for 1000 or so, its a tea bag, and they have found themselves putting 10k in it and are still half way done, and broke, and heart broken.
as Doug n Terri said in one post..
here are some things to do when checking out a car as well...
floors, inside and out.. lift up mats check inside.. same with trunk. surface rust.. its ok. use por 15 and treat it.. about 100 bucks will permanently protect your interior floor pans from the front all the way to the rear window (removing seats etc...) rotted through is not ok. if it looks weak, dont be afraid to investigate a bit.. feel it. infeact feel it allover, press with fingers and hands.. dont be afraid to tap it (not bang the crap out of it.. but like you are knocking on a door).. if you are away from the owner then feel free to give it a lil more than harder tap. (ie.. no one likes a tier kicker, but if hes not looking and youre concernerd dont be afraid)
look in the fender wells. door jams. rocker pannels. trunk lid areas. look in the deals and cracks creaveses and jambs. anywhere water may seap between parts or into seals check it out.
rear window.. look outside at the bottom of the rear window.. how much does the seal sag, or does it fit well. do you see any signs of repair.. ie paint not matching right. rust bubbles depending on the size can be ok or a no no.. (anything you worry about bring up to a mechanic when getting ppi or to a 912 guru like john or jeff, when they help check it over)
look around the front suspension.. rear suispension, tortion bars a-arms etc.. water and rust go here too...
trunk.. look everwhere.
bad paint dosent mean anything... could still have a solid body underneath. so dont automatically turn it away. but be more careful when looking. my friend has a rough looking and very faded and warn original paint (we dont call his the burguindy beast for nothin!!), but its very solid, and straight.
body parts cannot be replaced.. you cant call up tweaks and get a replacement fender.. if you do, its either fiberglass or crap.. either way it wont fit. floor pans can be replaced. fenders cant!!!!!
windows are the same up through the 80s. doors are same up through 993. engine lids.. hell you can put a 964 retractable engine lid on a 912.. if you so desire.
KEY IS TO BUY ORIGINAL!!!! more on this at the end.
IF YOU BUY A CAR THATS WELL MAINTAINED, WELL SORTED, AND YOU GET A PPI, THEN YOU SHOULD BE FINE. ifin you make an intelligent purchase then you will not have major rust problems. if you buy on a him with out making an intellignt choice you will shoot yourself in the foot.
*if it looks good but are concerned bring it up when youi get a ppi if you are serious enough to take it for a ppi*
a 95% rust free car is not hard to find if you look in the right places. you are in one of the right places. all will have some surcface rust hiding somewhere. surface rust can be delt with, its the rot you want to stay away from. if you buy a bastardised 912, you will get just that.. a bastard. if you get one thats been taken care of, well maintained, and get a ppi from the right place you will be ok.
the key is to make sure its well checked out in all the right places. a propper look in all the right places will give you the answer yuo are looking for: What if it has serious rust I don't find until much later?" if you buy the right car, and make an intelligent choice, you should have no problems unless you dont take care of it and propperly store it (ie dont drive it durring the winter where they salt the roads.. and dont store it in a swamp... ie.. your in dry sunny so cal.. so i will have a harder time finding a rust free car in ohio, than you would finding a swiss cheese 912, but still make an intelligent and thought out and well researched purchase!!!)
buy with your head not your heart.
get in touch with Jeff Trask, John Benton, or any one of the real gurus on the 912 registry. they are all in so cal. they will tell you who to go to in your area, and if not, im sure they can help check some stuff out or give some good leads.
ok.. i really didnt want to go indepth, but i want to make sure you get a good car, so you have to know what you are getting into. here is basically 912 101.. most things you need to keep your eye on, in case you arent familar
4 big things to look at
1 body.. rust..
2 engine
3 suspension
4 other ****
1) rust.
rust is somthing you dont learn to recognize over night. nor is it somthing you learn by pictures, or online. i suggest you contact them before you see it. i dont want to see you go over your head. usually someone buys a 912 for 1000 or so, its a tea bag, and they have found themselves putting 10k in it and are still half way done, and broke, and heart broken.
as Doug n Terri said in one post..
Start up front - take out a head lamp. There - that little rubber pluggy thing got gummed up with hornets wings, twigs and dirt - and water. Tah tah head lamp bucket or just in front of it - see fender replacement.
Next, look in the trunk, where the front bumper connects - there at the connectors. 69's are nortorious for rust at the four bolt spots up front because the little front gizmo tacked to the body has a V cut in it and this allows dirt to accumulate and get wet and tah tah front end.
Next is the side panel at the door line and front fender. Once again - two pieces of metal come together - the trailing metal piece, about 4 inches wide and the fender itself. The factory puts a goo there that hardens and falls out and is replaced by dirt and water - tah tah fender there.
The joint between the fender and the body. The factory glues the fender to the body with a double sided sticky tape and if that is interrupted or the hood rubber gives up (BUWHAAAhahaahahhahaha) there goes the body at the fender bolt on places.
The top near the fresh air duct - the rubber gets buckled by the screen and allows water to accumulate. There goes the rubber trough holder inner.
Doors - some dweeb took the door apart and DID NOT replace the shower curtain right. Rain water goes down there, and into the car. Tah tah rugs and seat pins.
Master brake cylinder failed and the fluid, being hygroscopic (not hydroscopic) like water - there goes the pedal cluster.
The car is a sun roof and some dweeb used compressed air to clean the 4 drain holes and blew off the rubber coupling - there goes the A piller at the door hinges.
Rear rubber at corners gets rotten and water collects there - there goes the C pillar
Next, look in the trunk, where the front bumper connects - there at the connectors. 69's are nortorious for rust at the four bolt spots up front because the little front gizmo tacked to the body has a V cut in it and this allows dirt to accumulate and get wet and tah tah front end.
Next is the side panel at the door line and front fender. Once again - two pieces of metal come together - the trailing metal piece, about 4 inches wide and the fender itself. The factory puts a goo there that hardens and falls out and is replaced by dirt and water - tah tah fender there.
The joint between the fender and the body. The factory glues the fender to the body with a double sided sticky tape and if that is interrupted or the hood rubber gives up (BUWHAAAhahaahahhahaha) there goes the body at the fender bolt on places.
The top near the fresh air duct - the rubber gets buckled by the screen and allows water to accumulate. There goes the rubber trough holder inner.
Doors - some dweeb took the door apart and DID NOT replace the shower curtain right. Rain water goes down there, and into the car. Tah tah rugs and seat pins.
Master brake cylinder failed and the fluid, being hygroscopic (not hydroscopic) like water - there goes the pedal cluster.
The car is a sun roof and some dweeb used compressed air to clean the 4 drain holes and blew off the rubber coupling - there goes the A piller at the door hinges.
Rear rubber at corners gets rotten and water collects there - there goes the C pillar
floors, inside and out.. lift up mats check inside.. same with trunk. surface rust.. its ok. use por 15 and treat it.. about 100 bucks will permanently protect your interior floor pans from the front all the way to the rear window (removing seats etc...) rotted through is not ok. if it looks weak, dont be afraid to investigate a bit.. feel it. infeact feel it allover, press with fingers and hands.. dont be afraid to tap it (not bang the crap out of it.. but like you are knocking on a door).. if you are away from the owner then feel free to give it a lil more than harder tap. (ie.. no one likes a tier kicker, but if hes not looking and youre concernerd dont be afraid)
look in the fender wells. door jams. rocker pannels. trunk lid areas. look in the deals and cracks creaveses and jambs. anywhere water may seap between parts or into seals check it out.
rear window.. look outside at the bottom of the rear window.. how much does the seal sag, or does it fit well. do you see any signs of repair.. ie paint not matching right. rust bubbles depending on the size can be ok or a no no.. (anything you worry about bring up to a mechanic when getting ppi or to a 912 guru like john or jeff, when they help check it over)
look around the front suspension.. rear suispension, tortion bars a-arms etc.. water and rust go here too...
trunk.. look everwhere.
bad paint dosent mean anything... could still have a solid body underneath. so dont automatically turn it away. but be more careful when looking. my friend has a rough looking and very faded and warn original paint (we dont call his the burguindy beast for nothin!!), but its very solid, and straight.
body parts cannot be replaced.. you cant call up tweaks and get a replacement fender.. if you do, its either fiberglass or crap.. either way it wont fit. floor pans can be replaced. fenders cant!!!!!
windows are the same up through the 80s. doors are same up through 993. engine lids.. hell you can put a 964 retractable engine lid on a 912.. if you so desire.
KEY IS TO BUY ORIGINAL!!!! more on this at the end.
IF YOU BUY A CAR THATS WELL MAINTAINED, WELL SORTED, AND YOU GET A PPI, THEN YOU SHOULD BE FINE. ifin you make an intelligent purchase then you will not have major rust problems. if you buy on a him with out making an intellignt choice you will shoot yourself in the foot.
*if it looks good but are concerned bring it up when youi get a ppi if you are serious enough to take it for a ppi*
Last edited by hoffman912; 06-23-2004 at 06:06 AM.
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06-23-2004, 05:37 AM
#8
The Hoffinator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
2) Engine
this is the most expensive part of the car. a 912 rebuild will cost anywhere from 5-8 depending on mild or wild or reliable. you can also have wild and reliable up to about 120 hp.
stock is about 100 hp.
main things to do.. compression test. leak down test. this will tell you all.
what to find out.. how often is it driven.. how often has it sat and what was the longest it sat. what kind of maintenence does he do.
has it been rebuilt. by who? who did the machine work. what di they do to the heads.
what kind of carburetors? solex=orginal webbers or dellortos are not.
solex-good. webber & dellorto -so so
thats if the carbs are in good shape.. a bad carb is a bad carb no matter how you go about it. if its a solex and its bad, get em rebuilt. if its a webber and its bad either get new webbers or buy rebuilt solexs built by the right person. shoddy rebuilds are as bad as bad carbs.
distributor,...
009.. vw distributor with not enough advance. will run, but not run at its best. sight of a cheep owner or an owner who dosent know what they are doing or doesnt care enough to have it run right
031.. original
061 original
022 orginal
if you have an original distributor, great. if its runing bad hae it rebuilt. better than anything else, execpt an rsr0012 (will get to this l;ater)
050.. vw distributor with a very close advance to original.. not best but best aftermarket dizzy avalale (best affordable option til it was discontinued last year)..
rsr0012.. basically a new 009 that has been ripped appartgutted and remade to have the correct advance as an oruiginal. this brand new product is only available and made by classic and speed parts and will run about $200. every body loves this one.. your car will sing with this. also, becasue it is based off of the 009, caps, rotors, points or electronic ignition is the same that goes into the 009 meaning maintenence is cheeper and easy to find.
engine parts...
main bearings.. hard as hell to find now.. and very expensive. unless you get all std, but with how old and how warn some engines are etc.. its not likely you can use std bearings i think they are about 400 a piece
cranks a new scat crank will run about 1500. a light weight crank will run about 2000.
pistons and cylinders.. a set of shasta p&c (one of the best available.. and the cheepest good set available) will run 1200. if you want mahle they will be 2000. nprs are not made anymore.. if you see someone advertising new npr or new japaneese pistons.. run as the npr copies are crap.
as you can see.. **** adds up.. big time...
ok engine types.
1st.. 912 or 356 (same thing for the most part)
looks alot like a vw type 1 in many respects.. but the fan shround is more round.. the fan shorud etc is a bit larger when everything is put together.
2) vw type 4
this one has carbs in it. many times they will have fuel injection too.. you need to ask the 914 guys about this.. as this is their engine. was used in vw busses too. and the 912E.. more about that when we talk about diofferences in years.
here is a web page all about the type 4 conversion http://gumby912.servebeer.com/
for more questions on this conversion ask exce11ence.. his 69 912 has this conversion (btw.. where are you when we need you dave!!?!?!?)
here is also a thread to check out.. http://www.912bbs.org/index.php?a=thread&p=63241
not many 912ers are fans of vw engines. we respect the type 4 conversion more than the type 1.
also make not the the engines are different.. so the gearing wont be the same!! some have regeared their gear box to go wth their engine conversion.. somthing to keep in mind.
ok..
enough of class today..
i will continue tomarrow with the type 1 engine conversion, the subaru motor conversion. then a little on on others.. mazda and chevy...
folowed by this will be a brief bit on suspension
followed by the differences in years.. 65-68 (the short wheel base), and 69 the long wheel base, and 76, the 912E.
after that if we have time will be other ****.. right now im goin to bed.
in the mean time check out
912bbs.org
912registry.org
these are the two most important things you can look over. visit the 912bbs. poke around, post on the board, get to know the guys.. they are a great bnch of people with a wealth of knowledge, and are more than hapy to help
also..
what are you doing august 5-8? if you arent doing anything you can come up to monterey and hang out with 100 912ers and see alot of great cars. if you wanna caravan up, i can meet you in san luis obispo on my way up pch. i highly recomend this gathering to anyone interested in 912s and having fun. everyone is kind as saints, and someof the funniest characters you could ever meet.
Keep the Faith
Harry
this is the most expensive part of the car. a 912 rebuild will cost anywhere from 5-8 depending on mild or wild or reliable. you can also have wild and reliable up to about 120 hp.
stock is about 100 hp.
main things to do.. compression test. leak down test. this will tell you all.
what to find out.. how often is it driven.. how often has it sat and what was the longest it sat. what kind of maintenence does he do.
has it been rebuilt. by who? who did the machine work. what di they do to the heads.
what kind of carburetors? solex=orginal webbers or dellortos are not.
solex-good. webber & dellorto -so so
thats if the carbs are in good shape.. a bad carb is a bad carb no matter how you go about it. if its a solex and its bad, get em rebuilt. if its a webber and its bad either get new webbers or buy rebuilt solexs built by the right person. shoddy rebuilds are as bad as bad carbs.
distributor,...
009.. vw distributor with not enough advance. will run, but not run at its best. sight of a cheep owner or an owner who dosent know what they are doing or doesnt care enough to have it run right
031.. original
061 original
022 orginal
if you have an original distributor, great. if its runing bad hae it rebuilt. better than anything else, execpt an rsr0012 (will get to this l;ater)
050.. vw distributor with a very close advance to original.. not best but best aftermarket dizzy avalale (best affordable option til it was discontinued last year)..
rsr0012.. basically a new 009 that has been ripped appartgutted and remade to have the correct advance as an oruiginal. this brand new product is only available and made by classic and speed parts and will run about $200. every body loves this one.. your car will sing with this. also, becasue it is based off of the 009, caps, rotors, points or electronic ignition is the same that goes into the 009 meaning maintenence is cheeper and easy to find.
engine parts...
main bearings.. hard as hell to find now.. and very expensive. unless you get all std, but with how old and how warn some engines are etc.. its not likely you can use std bearings i think they are about 400 a piece
cranks a new scat crank will run about 1500. a light weight crank will run about 2000.
pistons and cylinders.. a set of shasta p&c (one of the best available.. and the cheepest good set available) will run 1200. if you want mahle they will be 2000. nprs are not made anymore.. if you see someone advertising new npr or new japaneese pistons.. run as the npr copies are crap.
as you can see.. **** adds up.. big time...
ok engine types.
1st.. 912 or 356 (same thing for the most part)
looks alot like a vw type 1 in many respects.. but the fan shround is more round.. the fan shorud etc is a bit larger when everything is put together.
2) vw type 4
this one has carbs in it. many times they will have fuel injection too.. you need to ask the 914 guys about this.. as this is their engine. was used in vw busses too. and the 912E.. more about that when we talk about diofferences in years.
here is a web page all about the type 4 conversion http://gumby912.servebeer.com/
for more questions on this conversion ask exce11ence.. his 69 912 has this conversion (btw.. where are you when we need you dave!!?!?!?)
here is also a thread to check out.. http://www.912bbs.org/index.php?a=thread&p=63241
not many 912ers are fans of vw engines. we respect the type 4 conversion more than the type 1.
also make not the the engines are different.. so the gearing wont be the same!! some have regeared their gear box to go wth their engine conversion.. somthing to keep in mind.
ok..
enough of class today..
i will continue tomarrow with the type 1 engine conversion, the subaru motor conversion. then a little on on others.. mazda and chevy...
folowed by this will be a brief bit on suspension
followed by the differences in years.. 65-68 (the short wheel base), and 69 the long wheel base, and 76, the 912E.
after that if we have time will be other ****.. right now im goin to bed.
in the mean time check out
912bbs.org
912registry.org
these are the two most important things you can look over. visit the 912bbs. poke around, post on the board, get to know the guys.. they are a great bnch of people with a wealth of knowledge, and are more than hapy to help
also..
what are you doing august 5-8? if you arent doing anything you can come up to monterey and hang out with 100 912ers and see alot of great cars. if you wanna caravan up, i can meet you in san luis obispo on my way up pch. i highly recomend this gathering to anyone interested in 912s and having fun. everyone is kind as saints, and someof the funniest characters you could ever meet.
Keep the Faith
Harry
Last edited by hoffman912; 06-23-2004 at 06:17 AM.
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