Cc930

I'm looking at a 79 930 and the engine number seems a bit odd - 6700365.

Would this be a correct engine number for a 79 930?

Porsche 930

Cc,

6700365 is a 1980 RoW, other than Japan, 3.3 liter turbo motor.
If it were a 1979 911/930 type engine the 3rd character would be a 9 and not a 0.

Bud

Cc930

Bud,

Sorry for the newbie question, but what does RoW mean?

Porsche 930

RoW = Rest of World
It typically means all production built for anywhere other than No. America (US and Canada) BUT in this case it also is excluding motors built for Japan

Cc930

Thanks Bud.

I'm a little more familiar with early 911s and 912s. Those collectors seem to take things like this a little more seriously. I hardly ever see 930 ads that mention engine numbers. What kind of impact would something like this have on the value of a 79 930 in great shape?

The Baron

Cc,

Welcome aboard to the "Early Turbo" crowd.... I will try to address your comments and concerns individually;

A. There are a few of us in the "Early Turbo" crowd that are also familiar with the "long hoods" and the priorities/details that govern the philosophy of early 911 $ values.

B. I wouldn't necessarily say that the "Early 911" crowd takes this more seriously then us, it's just that engine swaps seem to have been much more prevalent in the mid-late'6os and early '70s (the long hood era) than it was in the Early Turbo era. This originality concern for matching #s in street cars was initiated and grew in the late '80s and early '90s during the first rise in values of the '73 RS . There were/are quite a few '73 RS that have wrong numbered engines or worse, re-stamped 7R cases in them. As the second & third wave/rise in values has hit with prices of '73 RS climbing above 1/2 million dollars, this concern is even more important. As with any commodity that rises in value, the category that this commodity is in, usually follows (cliché-"All ships rise with the tide) and in this case that means; the TR (rare), the 70 ST(also rare), '73 S, '67 S, '70-71 S, and finally the original '65-'66 911 which finally started to rise in value around 2007-08.

Because of this rise in value across the entire longhood category with values of certain longhoods skyrocketing, the emphasis on originality and pedigree has understandably taken a more prominent role.

C. I think that there are several reasons that you might not notice this concern (matching engine numbers) in the "Early Turbo" category as much.....yet;
.....1. Initial cost (MSRP) - Because of the steep (by comparison) initial cost in '75 -'76 of the Turbo which at +/-$26k was nearly double the cost of a comparable 911 at that time, more of these cars were nurtured/preserved/maintained as a whole than the hordes of longhoods at the time.
.....2. Usage - There are exceptions ( I know of an original owner '79 Turbo with 317k miles... yep 9k per year ..... and he still drives it 8 months per year) but most .....probably 99% of all Turbos are NOT daily drivers, they were garage kept 2nd, 3rd or 4th cars from the start. Most 356 and early 911 were daily drivers with many being parked outside.
.....3. Maintenance - From the onset, Turbos were maintained by authorised Porsche dealers and not independent shops (there were exceptions - ANDIAL, etc...) where as with the of the 911 in '65, many of these cars were serviced by independent shops that were already established in the because of the 356 market.
.....4. Engine reliability - 2.0, 2.2, 2.4, 2.7 vs. 3.0 & 3.3...... Although I love the early 6 cylinders ( I have a few '65-'66 911) these early engine cases are nowhere even close to the "Bullet Proof" reliability of the 3.0-3.3 Tubo cases. If you have ever had the chance to see an example of each side-by-side, there is no comparison. As well, the 3.0-3.3 is a very understressed case in stock/unmodified form and as such, it stands to reason that there is a higher percentage of cars with their original cases.

D. I can't speak for everyone on this forum but I think that with all of the aforementioned, as the values of the Turbos (930, 964 etc..) continue to increase, this issue will become more prominent as will originality, pedigree and "Documented" mileage !

There is already a disparity in prices for;
....original paint cars vs. Non
....original vs. heavily modified drivetrains
....original vs. heavily modified interiors
....original slant nose vs. aftermarket conversions
....street vs. track cars

.......and there are two very distinct and healthy markets for both categories (original cars vs. Non or modified)

As with any hobby or in this case hobby/commodity, any buyer should carefully examine his short term or long term needs-desires-goals before jumping into this........

Hope this helps

speednme

Chuck (The Baron) pretty much hit the nail on the head. I would like to add that any true collector(for investment purposes) would make sure that matching numbers are a must plus all stock items are present regardless of brand or make.

930 ads at the moment may not include engine numbers but as time moves forward and 930's take on more of an investment role, you can bet that all of you required "buzz" words will accompany the ad. Early 930's(for most) are at the investment point as we speak(75-79). Some rare 80's are as well. Ruf cars(even conversions done at a Ruf authorize dealer by Ruf techs) are getting pretty good traction.

As far as "impact of value"(need to first find out from the factory if this truly is not the original engine..anything could have happened back in 79) pretty much depends on you as the buyer. By that I mean, how important is it to you if the engine is not the original engine it came with? Truth is, it can't be sold as a numbers matching car BUT it can be sold as a true 930. It's not like you are a buying a 930 with a Chevy LS1 motor in it. For most us who are not collectors the issue is a moot point...if your not a collector..just buy it and enjoy the heck out of it..

Porsche 930

Cc,

With regard to your questions, I first have to say; well written reply by Chuck and great follow-up by Rey.
There is no question that familiarity with early 911s and 912s is a huge plus when making your initial assessment on any 930.
You’ve already shown the value of your experiences by asking about the engine number on the 930 you are looking at.
Best luck in your pursuit.

Bud

Cc930

Thanks for all help. You guys are great!

pu911rsr

Baron's comments are spot on. I've owned a bunch of early 911's many w/o matching #'s engines, so a couple of additional points as food for thought-
1. It was fairly common for early 911 engines to fail catastrophically - it was generally cheaper to install a newer motor than rebuild a motor on a new case. Same reason so many MFI cars were converted to webers in the early days.
2. It was also desirable from a performance standpoint to upgrade motor- you could swap a S motor into a T very easily. The turbo motor was already the top dog, no easy motor swap for more performance.
3. Turbo motors require fairly frequent rebuilds but mostly for head and P&C wear, the silicone carbide re-enforced aluminum cases are pretty damn bullet proof.
Phil

Thomashubert

Hey I sent you a email but I hope you still have some of these! Definitely interested in purchasing a set asap.