Andial or Koklen Intercoolers???
07-19-2003, 04:59 PM
#16
Rennlist Lifetime Member
The Factory C2T intercooler has a much lower heat saturation point and the efficiency drops off about 20 degrees sooner than the Koklen. The Kokeln still out performs the C2T in about every regard I have tested. Also it requires some mods that the Koklen does not such as fiddling with the AC condenser and the rear wiper.
George,
Glad you mention HP and intercoolers so I can address this issue.
Intercoolers in general DO NOT add HP. The factory intercooler is ok until it reaches 88 degrees ambient. If you ever wondered why the factory intercoolers had shrouding it was to force air through the intercooler. By doing this you allow the effective surface are to be doubled in a sense by forcing air through it. This allowed room in a street car for all the things you would need and to still cool the air to the intake. However after 88 degrees the intercooler can no longer become efficient with even the mass amount of air rolling over it. The result is hotter air and with a moded motor a dangerous setup. The other intercoolers in the aftermarket world offer superior results over any 930/C2T intercooler. The only real intercooler that the factory used that yielded excellent ability to remove heat from the core was the 993TT. Bigger intercoolers for this series heat soak faster because of the thick core compared to the large "face" or surface area of the 993TT. If you take a stock 930 intercooler on a mildly modified motor and run (enter favorite intercooler here) on a 60 degree day there will not be any HP gain. Put them at 100 degree ambient and there is a loss of the stock and the Koklen will sustain. Times that an intercooler will add HP is when pressure drops are significant and that can be eliminated. Naturally more pressure better HP. The other factor is overall flow of the intercooler and the ability to carry larger CFM numbers. If the car has been modified beyond normal CFM requirements a larger intercooler will regain the HP loss because of this.
George,
Glad you mention HP and intercoolers so I can address this issue.
Intercoolers in general DO NOT add HP. The factory intercooler is ok until it reaches 88 degrees ambient. If you ever wondered why the factory intercoolers had shrouding it was to force air through the intercooler. By doing this you allow the effective surface are to be doubled in a sense by forcing air through it. This allowed room in a street car for all the things you would need and to still cool the air to the intake. However after 88 degrees the intercooler can no longer become efficient with even the mass amount of air rolling over it. The result is hotter air and with a moded motor a dangerous setup. The other intercoolers in the aftermarket world offer superior results over any 930/C2T intercooler. The only real intercooler that the factory used that yielded excellent ability to remove heat from the core was the 993TT. Bigger intercoolers for this series heat soak faster because of the thick core compared to the large "face" or surface area of the 993TT. If you take a stock 930 intercooler on a mildly modified motor and run (enter favorite intercooler here) on a 60 degree day there will not be any HP gain. Put them at 100 degree ambient and there is a loss of the stock and the Koklen will sustain. Times that an intercooler will add HP is when pressure drops are significant and that can be eliminated. Naturally more pressure better HP. The other factor is overall flow of the intercooler and the ability to carry larger CFM numbers. If the car has been modified beyond normal CFM requirements a larger intercooler will regain the HP loss because of this.
07-19-2003, 06:52 PM
#17
RL Technical Advisor
Hi Stephen:
I guess I've had different results using both IC's on the flow bench as well as our engine dyno cell.
The Kokeln, while quite a good unit, does not flow as much at the same pressure as the C2 IC does and in the test cell (with LOTS of airflow that simulates the car on the road), the C2 ones provides a greater temp drop.
Due to its increased area, the C2 IC's certainly suffer greater heat soak issues when the car is not moving very fast.
One point,...Chassis dynos not do an accurate job of evaluating IC, due to the extreme difficulty of assuring the same airflow through the IC, as a moving car at speed while the car is static.
You are right on about packaging though, C2 ones are not as user friendly and the Kokeln is much more "plug-'n-play" than the C2 one.
I guess I've had different results using both IC's on the flow bench as well as our engine dyno cell.
The Kokeln, while quite a good unit, does not flow as much at the same pressure as the C2 IC does and in the test cell (with LOTS of airflow that simulates the car on the road), the C2 ones provides a greater temp drop.
Due to its increased area, the C2 IC's certainly suffer greater heat soak issues when the car is not moving very fast.
One point,...Chassis dynos not do an accurate job of evaluating IC, due to the extreme difficulty of assuring the same airflow through the IC, as a moving car at speed while the car is static.
You are right on about packaging though, C2 ones are not as user friendly and the Kokeln is much more "plug-'n-play" than the C2 one.
Last edited by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems; 07-19-2003 at 10:48 PM.
07-19-2003, 07:02 PM
#18
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Steve,
The results of the test were certainly not calculated on the dyno and were done at 509CFM which is above the ability of the C2T intercooler. Also some of the test were done back to back on the street in regards to temps drops. The C2T performed well, yet not as good as the Koklen. The C2T intercooler simply can not move or control the temperature of the air on the bigger builds. When it tries the pressure drops are significant. Also the C2T would hit its satuation point much faster because of the less surface area of the Koklen. On the street and on the bench it simply was out paced by the Koklen. It was however better than B&Bs.
BTW I love hard data. Wait until you see the results of the exhaust testing I have done on the 996TT. I love real data...
The results of the test were certainly not calculated on the dyno and were done at 509CFM which is above the ability of the C2T intercooler. Also some of the test were done back to back on the street in regards to temps drops. The C2T performed well, yet not as good as the Koklen. The C2T intercooler simply can not move or control the temperature of the air on the bigger builds. When it tries the pressure drops are significant. Also the C2T would hit its satuation point much faster because of the less surface area of the Koklen. On the street and on the bench it simply was out paced by the Koklen. It was however better than B&Bs.
BTW I love hard data. Wait until you see the results of the exhaust testing I have done on the 996TT. I love real data...
07-19-2003, 08:31 PM
#19
RL Technical Advisor
Hi Stephen:
Well Sir, all I can tell you is that we've observed different results that you have.
I'll stand by the charge air temp differences we've seen on the engine dyno under closely controlled conditions,.....
Well Sir, all I can tell you is that we've observed different results that you have.
I'll stand by the charge air temp differences we've seen on the engine dyno under closely controlled conditions,.....
07-19-2003, 08:54 PM
#20
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Dynos certainly have their place, but nothing like the real thing doing it real time. Between the flow bench and real data I will have to stick with the Kokeln. Interesting how you would record lower tempos with a core that is thick and a face that is smaller.
Efficiency can only go so far.
Efficiency can only go so far.
07-20-2003, 06:16 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Originally posted by Eric 930
Will the c2t fit without being modified? Eric
Will the c2t fit without being modified? Eric
Here is a picture of my kokeln in a 930 and a C2T I/C in a 930.
BTW: Notice the high dollar lid prop on my car. Works for the front and rear and will never fail like stock units.
07-20-2003, 06:19 PM
#23
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Great pics!! The little gray hose you see there is over 200.00 and the hose going to the fresh air inlet is 190 something and the plastic one is 150.00. The lines are the expensive part of the kit for sure. Not to mention the cost of the intercooler.
07-20-2003, 07:30 PM
#24
Those pics really tell me everything I wanted to know.
One looks like a John Deere option, the other is what we expect for a modern street car.
BTW, the John Deere part look like it uses old style Plate and Fin type core. I cannot see the Porsche core. Does this use the same construction. As I am thinking of upgrading my IC, I think I am going to look into the test results and maybe offer a 3rd result.
One looks like a John Deere option, the other is what we expect for a modern street car.
BTW, the John Deere part look like it uses old style Plate and Fin type core. I cannot see the Porsche core. Does this use the same construction. As I am thinking of upgrading my IC, I think I am going to look into the test results and maybe offer a 3rd result.
07-20-2003, 07:45 PM
#25
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Yes, Similar design. You could probably do as good with a Sperco core and a flow bench and do as well. Yet it wouldn't be cost effective for the masses I suspect unless you work for free
07-20-2003, 10:12 PM
#26
RL Technical Advisor
Originally posted by jhunt@huntinter
uh oh.... stand back guys... looks like a cat fight
John
'79 930
uh oh.... stand back guys... looks like a cat fight
John
'79 930
Its just a healthy, friendly exchange of information based on different experiences. This is an educational Forum and in that light, IMHO this is what this medium is for. Speaking only for myself, I learn something new everyday!
If we were all sitting around together with some pitchers of beer, this is what you would call a "spirited exchange",.....
07-21-2003, 05:06 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
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m42racer - why not call Kokeln and ask them - they are usually pretty friendly to deal with. Although you may not want to tell them that you think their 930 IC looks like a John Deere tractor part or motorhome part. Out of curiosity, what is the point of those analogies?