AKA

In the process of purchasing an 87' turbo slant nose. All original car with under 30k on the odometer. Having some problems researching the exhaust, wanted to use a B&B, but was told that there welds can be problematic. Any recommendations.

A930Rocket

Yes. Get a GHL system from Stephan at Imagine Auto <a href="http://www.imagineauto.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?" target="_blank">http://www.imagineauto.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?</a> or Steve at Rennsport. <a href="http://www.rennsportsystems.com/2a.html" target="_blank">http://www.rennsportsystems.com/2a.html</a>

Both sponsors of this board.

No affiliation. Just a happy customer.

Jim

Eric 930

Though we've seen more problems with the B&B setup, there are also alot more B&B systems sold than any other out there. Also the B&B numbers on a dyno are far superior than the GHL.

John from WA

That is ridiculous. Both GHL and B&B have a virually identical design (based on the 934). The "HP" gains would be nearly identical.

OTOH the GHL's come with a much better warranty. From experience I can say they stand SOLIDLY behind there product (above and beyond). I've never heard of a warranty problem with GHL, but have seen people try and get B&B to make fixes to no avail.

Eric 930

John, Yes the designs are very similar. A very reliable source has tested both systems for years and he said the B&B numbers are quite better than the GHL. Even though they both used the same welder. My opinion is the B&B system has more r an d behind it. Though the warranty department is lacking.

John from WA

Can I ask who tested both systems for years? I'm curious about how he/they would do that.

I've inspected both systems and, other than the heater boxes, they look identical. Essentially 934 headers with heater boxes.

Eric 930

John, The company is powerhaus. I've been dealing with tis guy for years with my 944 and have no reason to dought him. They are a well known company that does a lot of testing.

Eric 930

John, Your question to how someone would test a exhaust system, these guys have a dyno machine, and I'm sure what they did was test both systems on the same Identical car to asure reliable data.

John from WA

I thought Powerhaus produced there own line of headers. Either way, I have dropped them a line to find out more details.

PT

John,
Would like to find out the details too. So would appreciate if you can share what you find out...

thanks.

John from WA

Here is what Powerhaus said verbatim;

John,

That's exactly the case.

PowerHaus had a hot 1994 Turbo we'd tuned up with the usually bolt-ons:
* B&B-made 1.75" headers & right side exit muffler
* Stage-III turbocharger
* 1.0 bar wastegate spring
* Turbo-S flywheel & GT2 clutch
The car was solid at about 395rwhp on a Dynojet 248 chassis dyno. A setup like this really takes advantage of good headers, so any change there results in very different results.

The customer backed over a concrete parking stop and smashed the headers' slip joint. He was so impatient that he didn't want to wait 2-3 days to have B&B fix them correctly (even though they are local to us and made the headers in the first place), so he had us pick up a set of headers from GHL (also local) since they had a set on the shelf.

As soon as we started the car with the GHL headers, you could tell it wasn't the same. Dyno results confirmed the seat-of-the-pants feeling: over 20hp and 30tq lost to the wheels.

By the time PowerHaus had the GHLs installed (not a bolt-in since heater pipe connections didn't fit quite right, at least not on that set) and dyno tested, the B&Bs were repaired. We re-installed them and the car felt right again, and got its power back.

We cannot fault the headers for their appearance -- the welds were beautiful and the stainless perfectly polished -- but the performance wasn't there. Maybe there's more of an emphasis on appearance and profit than performance? (Side-by-side collectors are A LOT cheaper and easier to make than merge collectors!) The problem is in the collector, and we know this for sure since PowerHaus and B&B abandoned that design over 8 years ago in favor of a merge collector (pyramid style). Merge collectors simply flow better than a side-by-side collector, and that's why every race car out there runs headers with merge collectors.

We've heard GHL is claiming they're re-designed and optimized their header design, but since it still runs the same side-by-side collector, we still wouldn't use them.

Hope this clear this up -

-Chris Carroll
PowerHaus
Tel. 480-948-4788
info@powerhaus.com

----- Original Message -----
From: John Hunt
To: info@powerhaus.com
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:13 PM
Subject: headers

There is a guy on Rennlist claiming that for years you guys have tested the GHL 930 headers against the B&B headers and found the B&B produce more hp.

I find it hard to believe but am curious if this is really what your tests have shown?

I understand that you guys make your own headers etc.. and they aren't in question, just B&B and GHL.

Thanks,

John
'79 930

John from WA

John,

The B&Bs do use a pyramid style merge collector, and typically wrap the heater boxes around it making it less visible. (See attached photo of no-heat headers -- though these have a T04 and not a T3 flange -- and '91 C2T system with heater boxes.)

On another near-stock '94 Turbo, we had the same seat-of-the-pants results, and were disappointed that the customer had opted to get GHL instead of B&Bs on his car when the price difference at the time was only $200. (See attached photo - car w/ catalytic converter retained.)

I don't mind you posting the e-mail in its entirely. After all, those are the results we got on that application.

HOWEVER: If we start getting bombed with e-mail debating the +/- of different exhaust designs, or debate over the fairness of the header comparison on a modified Turbo, we reserve the right to just delete that e-mail. As I said, those are simply the results we've seen, and we're not interested in entering an online debate.

-Chris Carroll
PowerHaus

----- Original Message -----
From: John Hunt
To: PowerHaus.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: headers

It does, thanks. Strange, I thought the B&B were side by side as well, the heater box didn’t look large enough for pyramid style.



Would you mind if I posted this on the Rennlist?



John

John from WA

I would expect similar results on a similarly modified 3.3L Turbo. Maybe not quite as large differences -- maybe only 15hp and 20tq.

But when the price difference is basically only $200, why go cheap? The B&Bs work, fit as well as any other aftermarket "production" exhaust (vs. one-offs made on the engine) and they stand behind their product, as PowerHaus does.

BTW - that '94 Turbo at only 1bar pulled 408rwhp after adding the larger intercooler. What a beast of a car, despite the old-school CIS injection! :-)

-Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: John Hunt
To: PowerHaus.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:59 AM
Subject: RE: headers

I just read the ‘94 part. Would you expect or have you tested with similar results on a 930?



Thanks,

ZCAT3

John - this is really interesting - the first I have heard of this. When I was upgrading my headers a few years ago I spoke to Powerhaus and they recommended GHL over B&B for the very reason always cited on this board: fit, finish, durability and warranty.

John from WA

The worst part is my eating crow from the 4th post in this thread. Dang, I hate that. I suppose I can say someting like "well it wasn't really tested on a 930" or something like that.
But you can see how the triangle design is probably better. OTOH, GHL wins hands down in the warranty dept and my GHL equiped turbo is scalding fast (so much so that I lowered the boost to make it more enjoyable as my daily driver). Even if it is 15hp slower, big deal.