deadhead1960

I noticed a 1987 factory wide body targa for sale posted on the 911 and members only forum. Description reads well, only 1 picture though. Was looking for feedback on the asking price as well as a comparison to a 1987/1988 turbo in terms of market value. Any thoughts?

Helios59

I feel the M491 cars are overpriced, even though I have one...but if I were selling mine, I would probably feel differently! Mid-30s seems to be what the dealers are asking for nice low-mileage examples like that '87 Targa.

Turbo prices seem to be all over the place. As the economy slowly improves, perhaps prices will rise across the board.

That's my $.02...maybe worth only $.01!

Noah930

Looks like a very very clean car. Low miles. Not quite sure why sure a pristine car would need its wheels professionally refinished, though.

That being said, for that kind of money I'd prefer a 930. Obviously, as that's how I've spent my own money. Why pay the premium price...and then not get the best part of the deal, the turbo motor? Some would argue that you get all the turbo running gear (brakes, suspension, wider wheels, flares/spoilers, etc.). But you also get a weight penalty for that stuff that's not compensated for by any more HP from the normally-aspirated 3.2 motor. Personally, I don't think the M491 option is worth the price premium the seller's asking.

How much would you pay for a car that clean were it a narrow-body targa? The difference between that value and what the seller's asking is the premium you're paying for the M491 package; I just don't think it's worth the additional $10-15K. If I were to spend $37K, I'd be gunning for a clean Turbo, not a Turbo Look.

UDPride

FTLs are rare cars, especially Targas. In some ways they are the best of both worlds. All the running gear of the Turbo without the headaches under the engine lid.

My close buddy owns the very first FTL imported into the USA. It was actually featured in the centerfold of a book on Porsche 911s a few years ago. It is absolutely stunning on every way and has a garage full of ribbons and trophies. Platinum metallic on tan with matching platinum fuchs ( how it came from Factory). I think it has 120,000 miles but it looks like it has 20,000 miles on it. I think he'd take something under $37K too. Hes owned it maybe eight years but already has a Boxster S and wants to go in another direction (maybe a hot rod).


I can put you in touch with him if you are interested.

deadhead1960

Noah, you make some good points however you're analysis above is flawed. Strickly from the numbers, the $11,000 turbo look option in 1987 dollars is worth about $30,000 today. So in that sense even with depreciation, a $10K-15K spread is reasonable. The main value driver is scarcity. Compare the production numbers of the 3.2's with a G50 transmission (1987-89) compared to the number of 491's with the G50's. To take your example one step further, look at the club sport. You could argue, "is it really worth to pay 3x the price of the NB car just to buy a car that weighs a little bit less?" You get my point. Also, while turbos have their following, not everyone wants one. And other than the 1989 with the 5 speed/G50, the 87-89 491's offers both.

In the end, I'm actually surprised the 491's aren't priced higher, given the valuations of the club sport and the speedster and the overall reliability of the 3.2's in general. Plus this car that was advertised (if true), seems like an exceptional version. With so many of these cars going back overseas, I would not be surprised if there are only a few left on US soil.

Noah930

You equate rarity with financial value. Turbo targas were made in fewer numbers than cabs or coupes, yet traditionally are worth less than those bodystyles. IMO it's because fewer people want them than cabs or coupes.

What a car was worth 20 years ago has little relation to what it's worth now, IMO. Back then the turbo model cost far more than the $11K premium the M491 option ran. But that's not really reflected in today's market values. If it did and by your logic $37K is a reasonable asking price for a super clean 911 M491, super clean 930s should command far higher prices than the $37K. In general, they don't. It's rare for a 930 to exchange hands for over $40K, from what I've seen.

Just because an option cost $11K 20 years ago doesn't make it worth $11K today. By that reasoning, my car which cost $60K back in the day should be valued at $60K today, too. It's not.

In the end, cars are worth whatever one (more) person is willing to pay for them. All I know is that I wouldn't be close to being that one person for the car in question. But if the OP is, then it looks like the OP and the seller with both be happy people. Congrats.

UDPride

Not to get in the middle of this, but I think M491 cars were closer in price to turbos than they were base 911s. Of course we can only compare 86-89 cars. But I think a major reason for the low production volume was because the step up to a turbo was indeed a very short step, making an M491 car a tough sell. Recollection tells me the price difference was under $10,000, at least initially.

As Noah said though a car is whatever two people are willing to agree to. Targas are typically the third rail after coupes and convertibles. I like targas, just a lot of people dont.

I dont think the asking price is in the nuts category. Just takes one. Turbos are great, but they are also harder to work on. Dealing with the 3.3, not 3.2, turbos, ICs, etc etc. The 3.2s are almost bulletproof and cheaper to wrench. If you dont need the turbo power but want the rest of the goods, an FTL is a good way to go. A far better bargain than a Speedster thats for sure if you're looking for a non-turbo factory widebody.

Other advantage is with a 3.2, it takes throwing a fortune in mods out of the equation. Without the temptation, youll never miss em.

For reasons I cant explain, I know about six people in my radius with FTLs. They are happy campers and dont miss the power at all.

deadhead1960

I was referring to the analysis of comparing a NB targa to a WB targa and why the differential in price. And my justification was the high cost of the 491 option and the super low production numbers. I am in total agreement that coupes command a premium over cabs, whether it be in 3.2's, 964's or 993's. Also the market price differential between 86-88 turbos vs. 491's and 993TT vs C2s/C4S have narrowed to about a 5-15% differential.

I prefer the targa style and the fact that there are no mechanical issues to deal with, over the cab. With so few WB targas, I don't think there is enough history to determine what these cars actually sell for. I know these PCNA production figures are suspect, however for the G50 491's, they list only 4 targas for 1987 out of a total production run of 208 for all 3 years (87-89) and all 3 styles combined.

I think the asking price for the car in question is reasonable (again assuming it is all that), however I would exepect it to sell 10% below that figure, or in the $33-34K range. Let's see what happens.

911rudy

I don't get it. A 491 is like a Hollywood prop. It looks like something that it's not. It's like the geeks in the 60's that bought the six cyl. Mustangs and put V8 and GT badges on them. What do they claim to have when they go to Pcar shows? A 930 knock off? I guess from the rarity point of view you could say they are a collector's find but not for the thrill point of view. I remember a friend of mine had a new 912 and told me he would never go for the nasty new 911. I bought a new 911T which he drove and he almost cried. How could anyone who has driven a well sorted 930 be content with a 491?

Helios59

This morning I drove almost 100 miles in my poor, slow, fake M491...and as I look at it in my driveway I'm so thankful for all the pleasure it's brought me.

So, some of us poor misbegotten souls seem to like 'em! Enjoy your Porsche...drive it like Herr Dr Porsche intended...and remember to wave!

Noah930

FWIW, this month's Excellence has their price valuations on these M491 cars. I have no idea how they really compile their information, and there are times when they seem far removed what I've thought were actual market prices, but it's another data point.

As long as the car puts a smile on your face, isn't that what matters most?

UDPride

M491s are not fakes. They have all the running gear of the Turbos minus the engine upgrade. I would think the turbo widebody, turbo brakes, turbo suspension, etc, etc, would count for something. I count all of these as performance upgrades, not show upgrades.

911rudy

whatever

deadhead1960

Clearly

UDPride

You can quibble with the premise, but you can't argue the facts.

By your definition, a 73 RS and 911 RS America are also props. They dont get any upgrades. All they do is go on a diet. Whats the difference if you trim weight or improve brakes and suspension? They are all performance improvements. All from the factory.