Maxx1

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Hi,

I'm wondering if I am far off price wise on an 82 930 that I am looking at buying?

This one is an 82 930 Turbo and is in excellent condition. The firm price is 30K. The problem is there are not many 930s to compare to pricing wise other than sight unseen online. I will list the details and perhaps some of you can make a judgment whether or not this is a fair deal.

The car is a black on black European spec coupe with 29,000 miles. The mileage on the title shows (not actual mileage). To my understanding, the KPH to MPH conversion prompted the State of PA to regard the instrument as being 'tampered' with. There is plenty of documentation from 1983 to present that shows the VIN#, mileage and date all tied together at different service intervals, and in my opinion this is the true mileage of the car.

The car has a recent K27 turbo upgrade, new clutch, upgraded stainless exhaust, new bilsteins and upgraded chain tensioner oil lines. It runs and sounds great. It has a nice idle at 1,000 rpm and the boost kicks in smoothly with a decent rush of power. A/C doesn't work.

The car has been repainted and there are pictures documenting the step by step process. The current owner has several Porsches and is a perfectionist. The paint is very nicely done and looks factory. The interior shows no wear except for the leather dash is getting warped from the sun.

The car has some Certified document that came from Porsche and there is a binder with lots of paperwork and receipts. A premium car cover and bra is included.

My feeling on the car is even though I am hearing gray market cars are worth anywhere from 15% to 25% less, it's probably in the ball park price wise considering it doesn't appear to need anything. I could probably do better if I found a 86 or newer USA spec car. Problem is finding a car that has been well maintained, the right color and at the right price. This black 930 is a fairly nice example. Any opinions or suggestions?

Thanks for your time.

BrianKeithSmith

My first 930 was a 1983, grey market. My title said the same thing, and it was due to the federalization process that it went through in 1985.

If the guy has good receipts on it, the car checks out with an independent mechanic (not his), and you feel like the price is good, then there's no reason not to buy it.

The grey market cars have better fuel systems on them, have the cool side marker lights (I like them), and other than the changes that had to be performed during federalization are pretty much identical to a US 930.

I've never agreed with the tale that euro 930's are worth less. Why? They have the same body panels, same mechanicals, same interior (other than a few very minor differences). So if you are happy with the price, and the car, and it checks out OK, then go for it!

My .02...

Brian

WERK-I

It all depends on when the vehicle went through customs and when the DOT and EPA inspected the vehicle. If the vehicle was "new" from the factory when it entered the US, then it has to pass federal guidelines defined by the EPA and the Department of Safety. The vehicle must have a speedo in MPH, plus a lot of other things to pass the federal standards. I hate to even bring this up, but there are a lot of collector cars out there that have "tampered" odometers. What some people are passing off as low mileage cars is a joke.

The best way to see if the car is true to its mileage, is have it inspected by a very knowledgeable Porsche mechanic. They'll be able to spot components that don't jive with the claims of the seller.

I in total agreement with BrianKeith. I think the RoW cars are undervalued. Of course, I am somewhat biased.

Maxx1

Thanks for the good info!

I am not sure of what the car went through to be certified, but is does have a proper clear PA title. The current owner has a copy of the title when he purchased it and it states 'not original mileage' so apparently it's been that way from day 1. The concerning thing to me was why the car was repainted at such low mileage? but as I said, the paint process was well documented and the car was not wrecked. I was told that the original paint was fading and had a few stone chips up front. The interior looks like it's a 29,000 mile car... just a tad of wear on the bead of the drivers side support.

I will look at the car and service records more in detail this next week and then will take it in for a PPI. I like the fact that the car has a new clutch and some nice upgrades in place already. The only sticky point is Leland-West may give me problems since the car has the modified turbo and exhaust. I guess they would either not insure it or sur charge me. I wonder how they handle it if a car was purchased stock and then modified by the current owner?

Anyway, there is alot to think about, but thanks for the info. I would post a pic, but this account is too new.

cobalt

Grey market cars that came across in the 80's could be admitted without EPA conversion so long as it was more than 5 years old a time of entry (1 per person or unlimited to military personnel. They did however need to be DOT updated. A letter of release should accompany the car. The cars still will need to pass local emissions requirements even though they might not be EPA updated.

The issue with value was based on Insurance companies. They valued Grey Market cars at half that of US counterparts as they did not want to get involved with unknown vehicles. This did not make it a lesser car. Some states and companies will not insure and or will value the car at half its US value. So check with your carry first.

The ROW 930's were a better car with more HP, better CIS fuel head and exhaust. Producing over 300hp vs the previous 282 or close to it for the US 79's.

The biggest problem with Grey market cars is many people tried importing crappy cars that were cobbled back together and painted to look new with much more mileage than the ODO stated. I helped bring in over 70 cars and it was tough finding quality cars, but passed on all the junk. I would see cars in the US years later that were junk and people had thought they got a good deal because they paid so little.

That said many nice cars were brought over and if this one is true and checks out there is no reason not to buy it.

good Luck

srf506

I agree with BrianKeithSmith, my 1985 Black on grey 930 was purchased from a doctor in PA. It had no marks on the title as "not actual mileage" and I pulled the speedo and there's no little tag on the back registering the Kms that were on it before the conversion. I don't believe mine was converted. It was originally owned by BoSox player Billy Conigliaro, brother of Tony, and Its the doc's and my understanding he had it bought new and shipped over. It only had the Porsche Factory "delivery test" miles on it when it came over. Anything that was done to it has by now, been undone.

I paid right at 30 for mine four years ago. I drive it alot and I love it. Its got all the euro pices on it and except for the dash problem has been great once I got it all sorted. The only issue that I could see providing everything else pans out is insurance. Get the VIN, call your iinsurer and see if its in the database as it'll have a "ROW" VIN and sometimes they don't kick out of US insurance databases, even if the car's been registered, insured and driven for almost 30 years! There's lots of insurance companies that'll insure it for you. I use progressive, others use Haggertys. Other than that, parts aren't an issue as its probably 80% common to the US variant except for lights and emissions stuff. You get more horsepower and a better stance right out of the box. Good luck and let us know what you do.

Maxx1

Thanks again,

I will focus on the earliest receipts and see what I can find out. Hopefully this car was properly converted to US spec and there are no issues. The VIN # is WP0ZZZ933ZCS000(XXX)

I wonder what is required to have Porsche issue an Official Certification document to a Gray mkt car? ... because this car has one.

I'll report back later when I look the car over again.

onboost

I agree with BrianKeithSmith and with Cobalt....

There is nothing wrong with a "Grey Market" car if its what it should be.. Most of them ended up with the (not actual mileage) issue because of the odometer change to MPH when brough in... somebody just either didn't do it properly or motor vehicles screwed it up!
I had a "Grey Market" Ferrari Mondial Cab where the title stated 69,000 miles.. but it was actually 69,000 kilometers roughly 43K. I had a-hell-of time selling becuase of this and of course DMV would not issue a change or own up to the mistake.

As cobalt said.. a lot of the cars were junk though some were nice and properly converted to meet the EPA and DOT specs. Check with the owner as a lot of times people do retain the DOT & EPA releases.

Not sure what all the EPA suff entails as it varied from state to state..from a Fed perspective I know it call for charcoal cannister as part of the fuel vapor recovery system, cats & 02 sensors, inertia fuel cut-off switch..and I'm sure a bit more.

DOT wanted safety glass in windshield, reinforcements in bumpers and doors, inertia reel seat belts and I think that's it. You can usually find some bar of steel that was welded in on the tub or added to the bumbers, look for hole with bar in the door and two bolts honlding it in at the closing area. On some conversions they just replaced the doors with used US spec doors and painted as needed!

As far as your paint goes.. I wouldn't worry about that either..you've already verified non-accident. Could have been painted for any number of reasons, girlfriend or some ***** keyed it, kids scratched with bicycle, or it may have been dull and faded. Some of the early 80s paint was single stage and just didn't hold up.. ther's nothing like fresh base coat/clear coat!

Ok so do-it!!

Paul

Moochie

I bought a 1981 930 last year. It has documented 43k miles on it. Clean Carfax(for what that's worth). I paid a little less than the $30k you're talking about. However the lower mileage on the car you're looking at would make price make sense.

My theory was this:
Here in Maryland, and many other states cars 25 years old and older can be registered as "Historic". With that designation all the emmissions tests, and inspections are no longer an issue. So these older cars can be setup as they were originally. That eliminates alot of the concerns people have about Grey Market cars. You don't have to run the cat converters, smog pumps etc. those emmision requirements are the reason many people shy away from the grey market cars since many people say that the Euro cars never run right with all the FED emmision stuff on them. So now that we can legally return these older cars to thier original intended setup most of the negative issues regarding the Grey Market cars are no longer really an issue.

With that I think the negativity surrounding the Grey Market cars is less and less of an issue as these cars become eligable for Historic registration.

cobalt

Don't forget they also required the 5mph bumper impact mounts vs the ROW solid bumper mounts. Not all of these were converted. Most had the headlights changed over to sealed beam vs the stock H4's and needed a side marker added to the rear assembly and front side marker as the ROW had these left empty. I don't recall glass being an issue as the ROW market was using the same safety glass back in late 70's although the side doors required the addition of a side impact bar. That was usually completed by inserting a steel bar in the door and bolting through either side. If your lucky they retained the ROW smaller rear bumperettes vs the massive US version.

Otherwise these are no different than any other 20+++ year old Porsche and by now every car is suspect until it is given a clean bill of health.

WPOZZZ

My Row Carrera Cab had the same speedo issues when I purchased it. The car was sitting for the past 8 years and when I got it, the speedometer/odometer was busted. Sent it to Palo Alto Speedo and had them repair and calibrate it. Whaddya know, the speedo was reading 1.6 miles for every true mile! It seems it was never recalibrated for US spec. PAS reset the odometer to the true miles, so insted of an 89k car, it is a 55k, now 58k car. I know Carfax will ding me on the mileage as it differs from the mileage at the transfer, but there is certification from PAS.

onboost

Carfax is kinda-of-a-pain..

F350Lawman

I have nothing against grey market cars and tried to buy one before I bought the car I now have. That owner just wasn't ready to sell in time ( grey in color 82 930).

Grey market cars are worth slightly less IMHO. That's not really anegative, if you buy for slightly less and sell for slightly less...you've lost nothing. I think there are some reasons why they sell for less.

1. mileage history hard or impossible to verify
2. always some fear (justified or not) of what was done to federalize the car
3. some insurance companies won't insure (mine wouldn't)
4. many banks/finance companies won't finance
5. the nation's biggest dealer auto auction won't run them across the block (this is why I feel the finance/ins. company might shy away, they can't get rid of it easily if they get stuck with it. There are more 930's than you think at auctions)
6. fair or not, if you advertise the identical car and one is grey and the other is not MOST buyers are going to buy the U.S. car...probably most on this board as well.

1980-930

my 2 cents. even though my handle says 1980 - my car is an 82 930. When I decided to buy it, I wanted to know 2 things - 1. is the motor sound and 2. is the running and stoping gear sound. Other than those two things, what else really matters? These are grey market cars - that effects what? Some say resale - maybe, but as these cars get older, more dissapear and the ones that remain will increase in value.. Federalization, come-on seriously, took 3 things to "DOT certify" these cars 1. bumper shocks, 2. Cat converts and 3. side intrusion bars. If your car has the steel bars in the door, it was more than likely "federalized" - everyone removed the cats. But again, does it really matter when most states exempt cars over 25 years old from anythign but "safety inspection" - blinkers, brake lights, horn, seat belts... etc. NOONE is going to lend you money on a 25 year old car... NOONE is going to insure it as a daily driver - Grundy, Hagerty, etc will insure your car... and finally is anyone really going to walk into their local Chevy Dealer and try to trade it in on a Mini-Van?

What you really want to know is how much (if anything) are you going to need to spend to fix things that you can predict will break or fail soon after you buy it. - Right.

My sugestion is buy a car with the best leakdown and compression, least oil leaks, transmission and clutch service and regular maintenance - YOU WILL HAVE ELECTRONIC / WIRING ISSUES - YOU WILL HAVE ALTERNATOR ISSUES, YOU WILL NOT HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE MILAGE IS... For perspective, when I bought my car, the guy I bought it from send me over $55,000 in reciepts in engine and transmission work with less than 5,500 miles on the work and I bought the car for less than the cost of the work he had done. I can tell you that, if the mechanicals are solid, $30,000 is a steal for the smile factor alone when you walk out to your garage on Saturday morning.

cobalt

Well I guess it would matter if you live in CA, NJ, NY or any state that does require the work to be in place. DOT did not require CAT's that was EPA which most grey market cars were exempt from. If you were going through the process at the time it was a lot more involved than you say. I also find Hagerty and Grundy may insure but don't protect you from much more than total loss.

BTW you can get loans on cars older than 25 years depending on value and with all the crap I saw being sold to American's in the 80's there were a lot of cars I would never have touched and wonder if they are still road worthy today. I even saw cars that were cut and seemed out of 2 different vehicles not even from the same model year that they were trying to pass off on the unsuspecting.

Although I helped bring over some very nice cars. At the time I paid $7k for a car that would have cost me well into the $50k mark here.

You are correct these are all older cars and grey market or not need to be checked out. Although If the car had 100k miles on it and sold as a 25k car it may have well over 200k today and be very tired. These cars especially the earlier 911's had a tendency to stretch and flex as they got older. I have seen higher mileage cars that developed stress cracks in the seam welds and the paint began to crack on the inside front fender wells from being driven very hard for 5 years before being repainted and sold as low mileage cars.

As with anything this age, buyer beware.