Digital WUR??????
12-04-2007, 02:57 PM
#32
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I did wonder by your post if you didn't understand CO to AFR, but I didn't like to say 
Manual states CO should be 1% to 2.5% with the air pump disconnected for the 930/66 engine which is what engine you should have (I think mine is too).
Go for 2.2% as I previously mentioned when you get the UTCIS installed. For now get it bumped up to try and help your top end...
I would be careful swapping maps, that could be fatal to the engine.
I think the UTCIS should do the job, I was a little nervous at first about the 250rpm steps but now that I have had time to think about it I am sure it should be fine. I hope I haven't missed anything. I don't think so though.
That software looks pretty cool, I'll send you a PM with my email addy.
Oh, you can't be that thick, you drive a 911 turbo
Manual states CO should be 1% to 2.5% with the air pump disconnected for the 930/66 engine which is what engine you should have (I think mine is too).
Go for 2.2% as I previously mentioned when you get the UTCIS installed. For now get it bumped up to try and help your top end...
I would be careful swapping maps, that could be fatal to the engine.
I think the UTCIS should do the job, I was a little nervous at first about the 250rpm steps but now that I have had time to think about it I am sure it should be fine. I hope I haven't missed anything. I don't think so though.
That software looks pretty cool, I'll send you a PM with my email addy.
Oh, you can't be that thick, you drive a 911 turbo
12-04-2007, 03:43 PM
#33
regarding the software,
as I am working with full programmable EFIs,
this seems a little "old fashion" on first look,
but why not, the result is important.
The UTCIS-PT is a 28x18 ( rpm/boost) map
that are 504 data points.
Thats not a few only!
I suspect the boost pressure points are
vaccuum AND boost, otherwise the
datapoints are reduced dramaticly for our needs.
Or is someone here running 2.2 bar / 32 psi?
Warm up table is a little "easy".
Would have prefered adjustable time and temp in the fields.
I truly would prefer a table for mapping,
but maybe only because I am used to.
if this box can really do what the software
is promising, I think it will be fine to control AFR!
like to see some hardware pics and first results.
Falk
as I am working with full programmable EFIs,
this seems a little "old fashion" on first look,
but why not, the result is important.
The UTCIS-PT is a 28x18 ( rpm/boost) map
that are 504 data points.
Thats not a few only!
I suspect the boost pressure points are
vaccuum AND boost, otherwise the
datapoints are reduced dramaticly for our needs.
Or is someone here running 2.2 bar / 32 psi?
Warm up table is a little "easy".
Would have prefered adjustable time and temp in the fields.
I truly would prefer a table for mapping,
but maybe only because I am used to.
if this box can really do what the software
is promising, I think it will be fine to control AFR!
like to see some hardware pics and first results.
Falk
12-05-2007, 04:22 AM
#37
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Falk, as you have access to the necessary data with your work, is it possible to post a graph or table showing the ideal relationship between MAP and AFR, if we stick to 1.0Bar being atmosphere and start (like with the software) at 0.5bar and run it up to 2.3Bar it will help me determine what I should be aiming for.
For instance I am assuming from what Geoff said to Nathan that at 2.0 bar (1.0bar of boost) I should see 12.1AFR, and at cruise (1.0bar no boost) I should see 14.8AFR. Is it simply a straight line between these two values? For instance should I see 13.4AFR at 1.5Bar (0.5Bar of boost) or should it get richer quicker than that?
Once I understand what control pressure gives me the desired AFR in each particular RPM range and at what level of boost it should be quite simple right?
I'm also assuming that below 1000rpm we will have different control pressures to get the required AFR at idle, then everywhere higher in the rev range would be fairly similar, lean on vacuum, rich on boost and somewhere in between in the middle, have I got the right idea? It would be good if you could quickly put together what you thought would be a good base map, it would make an interesting comparison when I get the one that comes with the unit.
I'm happy to stay well in the safe zone, something like 11.9 at WOT, 14 at cruise etc I’m going to be saving SO much fuel compared to how it is now, I was driving home yesterday with my eye on the LM1 and saw it drop to 8.5 as the boost came in, it's around 12.5 on cruise, and then it's correct at idle and lean at the top, can't wait to get the WUR off the car.
It's a shame the other experts aren't chiming in, it would have been interesting and helpful to hear their thoughts.
For instance I am assuming from what Geoff said to Nathan that at 2.0 bar (1.0bar of boost) I should see 12.1AFR, and at cruise (1.0bar no boost) I should see 14.8AFR. Is it simply a straight line between these two values? For instance should I see 13.4AFR at 1.5Bar (0.5Bar of boost) or should it get richer quicker than that?
Once I understand what control pressure gives me the desired AFR in each particular RPM range and at what level of boost it should be quite simple right?
I'm also assuming that below 1000rpm we will have different control pressures to get the required AFR at idle, then everywhere higher in the rev range would be fairly similar, lean on vacuum, rich on boost and somewhere in between in the middle, have I got the right idea? It would be good if you could quickly put together what you thought would be a good base map, it would make an interesting comparison when I get the one that comes with the unit.
I'm happy to stay well in the safe zone, something like 11.9 at WOT, 14 at cruise etc I’m going to be saving SO much fuel compared to how it is now, I was driving home yesterday with my eye on the LM1 and saw it drop to 8.5 as the boost came in, it's around 12.5 on cruise, and then it's correct at idle and lean at the top, can't wait to get the WUR off the car.
It's a shame the other experts aren't chiming in, it would have been interesting and helpful to hear their thoughts.
12-05-2007, 06:01 AM
#38
Hello,
the EFI programming is part of my hobby,
it has influenced my business slightly,
but I am not the proffessional!
This table shoes AFR goals I would try for my car.
left scale is kg/cm2
1 kg/cm2 is approx 1.02 bar, top scale is rpm.
For start, I would recommend to go on the safe/richer side
of this table for 0.2-0.3 lees,
means no boost=14.2 AFR full boost=12
Truly I would prefer if one of the 930 experts
would correct this table!
*just for your info, the systems we are using
correct the Injection duration by themselves
looking on this AFR goal map and ad or reduce
Inj. duration. A fine toy!
I am in process to build something similar
for the 930, but truly it will take long time!
the EFI programming is part of my hobby,
it has influenced my business slightly,
but I am not the proffessional!
This table shoes AFR goals I would try for my car.
left scale is kg/cm2
1 kg/cm2 is approx 1.02 bar, top scale is rpm.
For start, I would recommend to go on the safe/richer side
of this table for 0.2-0.3 lees,
means no boost=14.2 AFR full boost=12
Truly I would prefer if one of the 930 experts
would correct this table!
*just for your info, the systems we are using
correct the Injection duration by themselves
looking on this AFR goal map and ad or reduce
Inj. duration. A fine toy!
I am in process to build something similar
for the 930, but truly it will take long time!
12-05-2007, 07:27 AM
#39
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So not a straight line at all then, in fact quite a steep curve from 14.2 (going on the richer side) with no boost then a sharp enrichment within the first 0.1Bar of boost raising the mixture a full 1.5 points, climbing slower but still sharp up to full enrichment at roughly 0.5bar of boost and then a nice flat 12 all the way from there. Cheers for that Falk
12-05-2007, 01:37 PM
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Jonathan, I think you overlooked that in fact 1bar of absolute pressure will be boost threshold, not cruise.
When you are cruising there will be a fair amount of vacuum. Anyway, if you wanted to be precise hook up a good vacuum gauge. Connect the hose to the inlet manifold itself. I can't give you figures because as you know I haven't done any of this yet.
I am no expert but Falks chart looks pretty good and is what I was thinking.
EDIT: I would think that at 0.0 (boost threshold) 13.5 AFR would be better for performance.
0.06 would benefit from 13.5 AFR too.
When you are cruising there will be a fair amount of vacuum. Anyway, if you wanted to be precise hook up a good vacuum gauge. Connect the hose to the inlet manifold itself. I can't give you figures because as you know I haven't done any of this yet.
I am no expert but Falks chart looks pretty good and is what I was thinking.
EDIT: I would think that at 0.0 (boost threshold) 13.5 AFR would be better for performance.
0.06 would benefit from 13.5 AFR too.
12-05-2007, 03:36 PM
#41
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So what you're saying is basically at all vacuum levels up to boost threshold should be IRO 14.2, and at boost threshold bring it down to 13.5, then by 0.5bar get it down to 12 and level from there?
I'm happy for it to be on the rich side as this helps cylinder head temp right? I know in a perfect system (EFI) you would aim for the optimum but you have more control with EGT's, knock sensors and the like and the capability of pulling timing and boost which I obviously don't.
If this gadget works all I’m expecting is smoother response, safer AFR's giving better MPG, better cold start and just better control in general, I just hope it does the job
I'm happy for it to be on the rich side as this helps cylinder head temp right? I know in a perfect system (EFI) you would aim for the optimum but you have more control with EGT's, knock sensors and the like and the capability of pulling timing and boost which I obviously don't.
If this gadget works all I’m expecting is smoother response, safer AFR's giving better MPG, better cold start and just better control in general, I just hope it does the job
12-05-2007, 05:11 PM
#42
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Hats off JBL930 for jumping in first and buying this unit!!
Will be looking on to see how this turns out,,hopefully goes good for you mate!
then you and the rest of us can get the most from our cis injected cars finally!!
Will be looking on to see how this turns out,,hopefully goes good for you mate!
then you and the rest of us can get the most from our cis injected cars finally!!
12-06-2007, 06:10 AM
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Hi Stu
I've read some of your posts regarding getting your adjustable WUR all dialed in, how is it working for you? Has it made a big difference to the over all performance and fuel economy? When i get the digital unit fitted on my car i'll be sending my WUR to Brian and getting it modified and getting the solenoid etc and keeping it in the garage as a back up, it obviously works well where i guess i'm in unknown territory, ah well a faint heart never won a fair lady...
Nathan, does this look ok then?
0.6bar = 14.2afr
0.7bar = 14.2afr
0.8bar = 14.2afr
0.9bar = 13.8afr
1.0bar = 13.5afr (Atmosphere/Boost Threshold)
1.1bar = 13.2afr
1.2bar = 12.9afr
1.3bar = 12.6afr
1.4bar = 12.3afr
1.5bar = 12.0afr
1.6bar = 12.0afr
1.7bar = 12.0afr
And so on up to whatever boost you are running, does that look rich/safe enough? Just hope it’s possible!
BTW do you need to go richer than 12.0 above 1.0bar of boost? Not that i'm ever going above 1.0bar
I was also wondering, probably a bit off topic, but with CO and AFR being linked, what other car emissions are linked? I thought that lots of things like ignition timing for instance affected the relationship between HC, CO, CO2, O2, NOx, and AFR, do any of the others run side by side?
I've read some of your posts regarding getting your adjustable WUR all dialed in, how is it working for you? Has it made a big difference to the over all performance and fuel economy? When i get the digital unit fitted on my car i'll be sending my WUR to Brian and getting it modified and getting the solenoid etc and keeping it in the garage as a back up, it obviously works well where i guess i'm in unknown territory, ah well a faint heart never won a fair lady...
Nathan, does this look ok then?
0.6bar = 14.2afr
0.7bar = 14.2afr
0.8bar = 14.2afr
0.9bar = 13.8afr
1.0bar = 13.5afr (Atmosphere/Boost Threshold)
1.1bar = 13.2afr
1.2bar = 12.9afr
1.3bar = 12.6afr
1.4bar = 12.3afr
1.5bar = 12.0afr
1.6bar = 12.0afr
1.7bar = 12.0afr
And so on up to whatever boost you are running, does that look rich/safe enough? Just hope it’s possible!
BTW do you need to go richer than 12.0 above 1.0bar of boost? Not that i'm ever going above 1.0bar
I was also wondering, probably a bit off topic, but with CO and AFR being linked, what other car emissions are linked? I thought that lots of things like ignition timing for instance affected the relationship between HC, CO, CO2, O2, NOx, and AFR, do any of the others run side by side?
Last edited by JBL930; 12-06-2007 at 08:42 AM.
12-06-2007, 08:35 AM
#45
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Does anyone know the relationship between control pressure, MAP and AFR? The WUR is completely mechanical and does it's job regardless of RPM right? So really it only has one thing controlling the mixture and that's MAP, is that right?
If so, there must be a graph/table showing MAP on one axis, control pressure on the other and AFR in the middle? Does anyone have this? Or anyone that knows the figures care to put one together?
Dialing this in then should be child's play, or as usual am i missing something?
ETA: The unit is only blue tooth compatible if you use a dongle, i thought the guy was taking the **** but a dongle is a USB thingy apparently with 100mtr range.
If so, there must be a graph/table showing MAP on one axis, control pressure on the other and AFR in the middle? Does anyone have this? Or anyone that knows the figures care to put one together?
Dialing this in then should be child's play, or as usual am i missing something?
ETA: The unit is only blue tooth compatible if you use a dongle, i thought the guy was taking the **** but a dongle is a USB thingy apparently with 100mtr range.