Fire
07-16-2006 | 09:09 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,666
Likes: 2
Sorry to hear your misfortune. Sounds like you were extemely lucky. I'd follow the advice of the other person and fit those clips. What Fuel Rails are you using. The stock 3.2L ones. Maybe consider some that are made for racing.
The perils of DIY projects are many and your fire is one. Double check everything, fit those clips and put this behind you. Don't let this spoil the fun to be had.
The perils of DIY projects are many and your fire is one. Double check everything, fit those clips and put this behind you. Don't let this spoil the fun to be had.
07-16-2006 | 11:38 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 965
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Don I am glad to know you are OK, that is first and foremost more important than any car. Last winter I got in on an AFFF fire suppresion group buy setup from Stable Energies, I will see if I could find the link for the group buy. You are lucky and the car will be fine.
07-17-2006 | 12:45 PM
#25
Racer
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 337
Likes: 1
From: Santa Fe, N.M.
07-17-2006 | 04:21 PM
#26
Pro
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 590
Likes: 8
From: Seattle
Don,
Wow. I'm really sorry to hear about this. Fire is one of the scariest of all possible problems -- and it's a huge risk with a 930. I'm really glad that you got out of this with nothing but a burned hose and several hours of work. If this had happened on the road somewhere, or in your garage... yikes. You have such a great attitude about all the misfortune that has come your way on this project. I smile just thinking about that cell phone conversation you must have had with your wife from the Subway. Please tell her from all of us out here in the cyber-turbo world that we're all envious that you have a wife who's not only understanding but who's willing and able to bring a trailer to pick you up when your car dies!
I'm using the same Mototron injectors as you. Or I think I am. I don't recall the length, but I verified it was identical to the stock Bosch injectors. Did you check that with yours? I'm not using any clips on mine either; please let us know if you find that they would be helpful. When I installed my injectors (using stock 3.2 rails on a 3.2 manifold), I fit them first into the rail, then pressed the rail, holding three injectors, into the manifold. I didn't check to see if the injector could slide "too deep" into the hole in the manifold. I got the sense that the injectors would not go much further into the manifold, but I never checked it. Maybe I should...
I study automotive fires as part of my work, so I get very interested in these things. Questions: are you sure the fire ignited from the exhaust system? Did you find any evidence of fire on the exhaust system or turbo? From your description, it sounds like it may have been electrically ignited. As hot as the turbo and manifold can get, they cool very quickly too. For gasoline to autoignite (ignite in the absence of a spark or flame) generally requires temperatures in the 1200 F range. I would think that even if your exhaust had been that hot when you parked it (which is doubtful, being that you were driving modestly around town, right?), it would have cooled substantially by the time you got back to start it. Unlike other parts of the engine, the hottest exhaust parts start to cool immediately, perhaps dropping several hundred degrees within a minute or two. And if the engine hadn't really started yet when the fire erupted, it would not have had a chance to get warm again. Without knowing more, I'm going to guess that the fuel leak occurred before you actually parked the car, and some fuel had already vaporized on hot engine parts. When you went to start the engine, more fuel leaked, further vaporizing on the still-warm engine. Because there was very little airflow in the engine compartment at that point, the mixture reached the ignitable range and was ignited by an errant electrical arc (from any number of possible sources including a spark plug lead or alternator). This caused a mildly explosive "delayed" ignition which is often accompanied by a "whoof" sound.
Of course, all this may be of no particular importance or interest at this point...
For engine fires, it's not just gasoline that's an issue -- it's oil (or any of the other underhood fluids, but with an early air-cooled Porsche, it's usually just gasoline and oil). Oil autoignites even more easily than gasoline on a hot surface. There's so much oil flowing around a Porsche engine and so many possible leak paths, and the surface temperatures are so high in so many places with a turbo that it's a recipe for disaster. Though gasoline has a higher energy when it burns, it's more rare event. An oil fire is what I worry most about.
I haven't (yet) seriously considered putting a fire suppression system in my car. I do carry a "halotron" fire extinguisher, which has a supressant that's equivalent to halon, but apparently not as damaging to the ozone layer. One of the problems with installing a suppression system on a 930 or 911 is that (by design) there's very little communication between the top and bottom of the engine. The greatest risk of fire would be from gasoline or oil on the hot exhaust system. I would think that for a suppression system to be effective, you would need to have nozzles both above and below the engine tin, which I haven't seen done before. But if I've seen fires re-ignite on manifolds (non-Porsches) after expending the entire quantity of suppressant, so it's good to carry a hand bottle as well.
Here's wishing that *nothing* ever goes wrong with your car ever again...
Rob
Wow. I'm really sorry to hear about this. Fire is one of the scariest of all possible problems -- and it's a huge risk with a 930. I'm really glad that you got out of this with nothing but a burned hose and several hours of work. If this had happened on the road somewhere, or in your garage... yikes. You have such a great attitude about all the misfortune that has come your way on this project. I smile just thinking about that cell phone conversation you must have had with your wife from the Subway. Please tell her from all of us out here in the cyber-turbo world that we're all envious that you have a wife who's not only understanding but who's willing and able to bring a trailer to pick you up when your car dies!
I'm using the same Mototron injectors as you. Or I think I am. I don't recall the length, but I verified it was identical to the stock Bosch injectors. Did you check that with yours? I'm not using any clips on mine either; please let us know if you find that they would be helpful. When I installed my injectors (using stock 3.2 rails on a 3.2 manifold), I fit them first into the rail, then pressed the rail, holding three injectors, into the manifold. I didn't check to see if the injector could slide "too deep" into the hole in the manifold. I got the sense that the injectors would not go much further into the manifold, but I never checked it. Maybe I should...
I study automotive fires as part of my work, so I get very interested in these things. Questions: are you sure the fire ignited from the exhaust system? Did you find any evidence of fire on the exhaust system or turbo? From your description, it sounds like it may have been electrically ignited. As hot as the turbo and manifold can get, they cool very quickly too. For gasoline to autoignite (ignite in the absence of a spark or flame) generally requires temperatures in the 1200 F range. I would think that even if your exhaust had been that hot when you parked it (which is doubtful, being that you were driving modestly around town, right?), it would have cooled substantially by the time you got back to start it. Unlike other parts of the engine, the hottest exhaust parts start to cool immediately, perhaps dropping several hundred degrees within a minute or two. And if the engine hadn't really started yet when the fire erupted, it would not have had a chance to get warm again. Without knowing more, I'm going to guess that the fuel leak occurred before you actually parked the car, and some fuel had already vaporized on hot engine parts. When you went to start the engine, more fuel leaked, further vaporizing on the still-warm engine. Because there was very little airflow in the engine compartment at that point, the mixture reached the ignitable range and was ignited by an errant electrical arc (from any number of possible sources including a spark plug lead or alternator). This caused a mildly explosive "delayed" ignition which is often accompanied by a "whoof" sound.
Of course, all this may be of no particular importance or interest at this point...
For engine fires, it's not just gasoline that's an issue -- it's oil (or any of the other underhood fluids, but with an early air-cooled Porsche, it's usually just gasoline and oil). Oil autoignites even more easily than gasoline on a hot surface. There's so much oil flowing around a Porsche engine and so many possible leak paths, and the surface temperatures are so high in so many places with a turbo that it's a recipe for disaster. Though gasoline has a higher energy when it burns, it's more rare event. An oil fire is what I worry most about.
I haven't (yet) seriously considered putting a fire suppression system in my car. I do carry a "halotron" fire extinguisher, which has a supressant that's equivalent to halon, but apparently not as damaging to the ozone layer. One of the problems with installing a suppression system on a 930 or 911 is that (by design) there's very little communication between the top and bottom of the engine. The greatest risk of fire would be from gasoline or oil on the hot exhaust system. I would think that for a suppression system to be effective, you would need to have nozzles both above and below the engine tin, which I haven't seen done before. But if I've seen fires re-ignite on manifolds (non-Porsches) after expending the entire quantity of suppressant, so it's good to carry a hand bottle as well.
Here's wishing that *nothing* ever goes wrong with your car ever again...
Rob
07-17-2006 | 08:49 PM
#27
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,344
Likes: 1
From: Near Atlanta, Ga. Peachtree City
I hate to be the only one that does not recommend a fire extinguishing system but I will explain. If you are a racer and could end up bottoms up in a race and possibly trapped inside, then a suppression system makes sense. But if you have done a lot of custom work on your car and have the reciepts for all of the work and notify your insurance company of the work and the new value it added to the car, then you are better off letting a rapidly growing fire take the whole car. Two things come to mind to confirm this stratergy. First and formost you could be severely burned or worse, killed in an explosion. And second, if the fire is put out after much damage you are then faced with the enormous task of trying to rebuild a badly burned car. I don't know how you guys feel about all of this but I feel more comfortable knowing that my insurance will cover the replacement cost including all of my new work rather than the long and tedious job of rebuilding the whole thing over again. I am not saying that a small fire extinguisher in the car is not a good idea for what happened to Don but a whole suppression system is expensive and weighty. Pay a little more up front to your insurance company and get the replacement value in writing and then go out and drive the hell out of your car and don't worry about a fire. Be honest, if you had the choice of getting your old burned out hulk back with a some NEGOCIATED amount of cash or getting the whole pile of cash for the entire car plus all of your upgrades , which would you choose? Think about what you could buy today for the same amount of money you have alredy spent on your car in the market that is out there today!I have learned this the hard way and hope that my argument may help some of you with this choice.
Rudy
07-17-2006 | 09:22 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,568
Likes: 5
From: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
For a street car I agree. A handheld is good. I track mine a lot and want that extra protection (just as I wear a good helmet, a 3 layer fire suit, H&N restraint, etc. ) for peace of mind.
I hate to be the only one that does not recommend a fire extinguishing system but I will explain. If you are a racer and could end up bottoms up in a race and possibly trapped inside, then a suppression system makes sense. But if you have done a lot of custom work on your car and have the reciepts for all of the work and notify your insurance company of the work and the new value it added to the car, then you are better off letting a rapidly growing fire take the whole car. Two things come to mind to confirm this stratergy. First and formost you could be severely burned or worse, killed in an explosion. And second, if the fire is put out after much damage you are then faced with the enormous task of trying to rebuild a badly burned car. I don't know how you guys feel about all of this but I feel more comfortable knowing that my insurance will cover the replacement cost including all of my new work rather than the long and tedious job of rebuilding the whole thing over again. I am not saying that a small fire extinguisher in the car is not a good idea for what happened to Don but a whole suppression system is expensive and weighty. Pay a little more up front to your insurance company and get the replacement value in writing and then go out and drive the hell out of your car and don't worry about a fire. Be honest, if you had the choice of getting your old burned out hulk back with a some NEGOCIATED amount of cash or getting the whole pile of cash for the entire car plus all of your upgrades , which would you choose? Think about what you could buy today for the same amount of money you have alredy spent on your car in the market that is out there today!
I have learned this the hard way and hope that my argument may help some of you with this choice.
Rudy
Originally Posted by 911rudy
I hate to be the only one that does not recommend a fire extinguishing system but I will explain. If you are a racer and could end up bottoms up in a race and possibly trapped inside, then a suppression system makes sense. But if you have done a lot of custom work on your car and have the reciepts for all of the work and notify your insurance company of the work and the new value it added to the car, then you are better off letting a rapidly growing fire take the whole car. Two things come to mind to confirm this stratergy. First and formost you could be severely burned or worse, killed in an explosion. And second, if the fire is put out after much damage you are then faced with the enormous task of trying to rebuild a badly burned car. I don't know how you guys feel about all of this but I feel more comfortable knowing that my insurance will cover the replacement cost including all of my new work rather than the long and tedious job of rebuilding the whole thing over again. I am not saying that a small fire extinguisher in the car is not a good idea for what happened to Don but a whole suppression system is expensive and weighty. Pay a little more up front to your insurance company and get the replacement value in writing and then go out and drive the hell out of your car and don't worry about a fire. Be honest, if you had the choice of getting your old burned out hulk back with a some NEGOCIATED amount of cash or getting the whole pile of cash for the entire car plus all of your upgrades , which would you choose? Think about what you could buy today for the same amount of money you have alredy spent on your car in the market that is out there today!I have learned this the hard way and hope that my argument may help some of you with this choice.
Rudy
07-17-2006 | 10:21 PM
#29
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 794
Likes: 0
From: St Johns, FL
Originally Posted by Rob S
Don,
[snip]
... we're all envious that you have a wife who's not only understanding but who's willing and able to bring a trailer to pick you up when your car dies!
[snip]
... we're all envious that you have a wife who's not only understanding but who's willing and able to bring a trailer to pick you up when your car dies!
I'm using the same Mototron injectors as you. Or I think I am. I don't recall the length, but I verified it was identical to the stock Bosch injectors. Did you check that with yours? [snip]
I study automotive fires as part of my work, so I get very interested in these things. Questions: are you sure the fire ignited from the exhaust system? Did you find any evidence of fire on the exhaust system or turbo? From your description, it sounds like it may have been electrically ignited. As hot as the turbo and manifold can get, they cool very quickly too. For gasoline to autoignite (ignite in the absence of a spark or flame) generally requires temperatures in the 1200 F range...[snip]
Here's wishing that *nothing* ever goes wrong with your car ever again...
Rob
