BrianKeithSmith

Hmmm.. Too much traffic at a DE. I've ran faster laps at DE's than I have in the races actually. Still haven't figured out how that's worked out, but for me so far, that's the case.

Here's 15 laps at VIR at the First Settlers PCA DE in May:
http://www.1barsystems.com/videos/VIR15Laps.wmv

Here are the lap times from that session, in order (you can tell the laps where I run up on traffic and get held up):
2:08.50
2:08.45
2:08.56
2:08.32
2:08.77
2:09.38
2:08.51
2:11.63
2:09.97
2:09.05
2:08.31
2:09.69
2:08.86
2:11.12
2:08.84

This was on Hoosiers R3S05s that had 25+ cycles on them,with stock gearbox. I ran those tires for 3 days at the Zone2 PCA DE in April, the May CMP race with NASA, then the Friday and Sat at the FST event, and the video/times were from the last session on Sunday, so those tires had 8 days total on them, figure 3-4, sometimes 5 sessions per day, 25 sessions may be a conservative cycle count.

I don't know what the different C class/D-stock, and all that stuff means in PCA (too much mumbo jumbo to read if you asked me), but if he ran 2:09 in a stock 930 he's the man. I've ran VIR for 5 years, and have about 10K miles on the track, and I've ran against 964 cups, 930s, etc. Every 964 Cup, 930 or 965 turbo I've ran against at VIR I've passed at will and left, unless they've had Dunlops, and even then, I've still passed them in almost all instances that I can recall, I've just left them at a slower rate.

Not trying to argue. I just know what I've seen over the past 5 years at that particular track. I wish I had $5 for every time someone told me I should be running 2:05s at VIR. Then I wish I had $100 for every time I've taken them for a ride and they've said "I think you're gettin all you're gonna get".

Regarding A930Rocket's original question, he's not trying to compare a 965 turbo, or 964 cup car to his car. He's asking about coilovers, on a 930, at a specific track, and asking for those lap times.

Brian

VZ935

Don't feel too bad.. you may have paid too much , but he never finished paying me what he owed ! I ended up getting the 3.4 crank fired twin plug single turbo motor back and the short bell 4speed. I had to fly to NC and "repo " it !

A930Rocket

Sounds like a nice guy. LOL

I gotta say it looks great, Brian drives it like he stole it and I wish I could keep up.

38D

Your best time from the NASA race at CMP was a 1:48.7. Bill Martin's best for the PCA race there in Nov '05 was a 1:46.7 in a 964 USA Carerra Cup on Hoosiers. Gary Grigsby ran a 1:48.9 in a F class 968. The F class car is basically a stock engined 968 with a race suspension & Hoosiers. It might make 260hp. A top 964 euro cup on Dunlop slicks would probably be around 1:43.

And yes, Chris Castagna was in a stock '89 930 on Hoosiers when he did a 2:09. He car was in C class, so he basically had a a stiff suspension, a short R&P and some big Hoosiers. And that was on a weekend were it rained most of the time and he only got in a few dry laps. It was alos the same weekend as a pro race (grand am?) so there were only 2 runs per day. He likely would have gone significantly lower with better conditions & more track time.

From what I have seen, NASA racing is not quite up to PCA club race times yet. Ron Savenor destoryed the entire field at the NASA Watkins Glen race, and he was dawdling along in the 2:09s (he ran 2:05 at the PCA race...).


To get this back on point, a well driven 930 with super stiff TBars can be very fast on the track. But coil-overs allow you to go to even a stiffer setup, and ultimately the car will be faster. How much faster will depend on the track. At bumpy tracks like Lime Rock or Sebring, coilovers will probably not do much good as you don't want a super stiff suspension. But at a really smooth track like the newly repaved Mid Ohio, I'd guess they could be a 1-1.5 second difference. VIR, assuming it is still smooth, would likely be about the same 1-1.5 seconds (I haven't been to VIR since 2002).

BrianKeithSmith

Like I said. He's the man then!

And from what I've seen, the PCA guys just like to wreck alot.

Brian

38D

The class front runners tend to be very clean, it's mid pack where there's more ego than skill where most issue happen. Most of the wrecks I have seen were mechanical failures or single driver incidents.

I actually am going to do a couple of NASA races next year. VIR might be one of them. I think I'll be in GTS3, but still need to do a dyno.

Btw, have you ever run Watkins Glen?

BrianKeithSmith

No ,never been there.

You ever been to CMP? 930s don't even get into 4th gear there, we only use 2 gears (2nd and 3rd). By the time you get some boost you have to stand on the brakes to make the next corner.

My best lap at CMP is a 1:46.9xxx.

I guess I just suck. There can be no other explanation...

Brian


Brian

A930Rocket

A five speed and a short R&P is a huge difference to a stock 4 speed and R&P with Dunlops bought used (and who knows how many heat cycles).

38D

Nope...not yet.


Actually, I think the problem is lack of competition. I'll bet you typically don't get passed at all in a DE weekend. Ok, maybe once or twice by a GT3 cup but that's it. So you end up driving mostly by yourself, and around drivers that are turning laps from 5 to 20 seconds slower than you. You end up lapping 1/2 the field. You're viewed as a demigod in the instructor ranks. You're the "fast" guy that all the students want to ride with (which means you're alos almost always carrying 180+ lbs of extra ballast...). Sound familar? The issue is this is not an environment where you have to push to improve.

Then, you go to a couple of NASA races. Sure there are 7-8 faster cars, but they are not in your class, so again, you don't really have too push hard. Nor do you have a good benchmark of what your car/class is capable of. You're winning you class easily, and beating all the lower GTS classes. Again, you don't have to push to be fast.

Ron Savenor is registered for the NASA nationals at Mid Ohio. He'll be in a 964 Euro Cup in GTS4. He is one of PCA's best, so will be a very good yardstick.

TrackDays247.com

Hey VZ -

Look familiar? I took these today

VZ935

Yep.. my old car . Woody and Tom drive those things every weekend . I wouldn't be surprised if they drive them to get groceries ! Here is what it looked like when I first got it

Then changed to match the black car in 2001

sand_man

Ah, yes...the 935 - one of my all time favorite machines...EVAR!

Richard930

Didn't mean to open a can of worms on the coilovers vs torsion bar debate! It's time to refresh the suspension and I'm looking for a reasonable cost effective plug and play kind of solution, that I only have to do once. I know that pretty much whatever I do it will be a huge improvement over the 25 year old stock stuff but I don't want to get overly complicated since, I'm not at the track at every oopportunity. Reading through all the posts has given me a few ideas that I can kick around - thanks!

Elephant Chuck

Too much of the advice in this thread reads like one-size-fits-all. It doesn't.

VZ935 drives .....wait for it....... a 935. And has a lot of racing experience. Coils are the right solution for him and probably a handful of others reading this thread. But these needs are not in line with the vast majority reading this thread.

There is no inherent performance benefit to coil overs. Their advantage is they are easier to change out track-side and can achieve higher wheel rates than tbars. Down side - cost and the need to reinforce the chassis. If you don't plan on running super high rates or changing springs trackside, you will do just as well with tbars.

Bottom line is that coils are right for a few, but the vast majority of the people reading this thread can save their money and stick with tbars.

VZ935

Actually Chuck I never mentioned my 935 . RSRS saw my old 935 running at his local track and made a post I responded to.
I have driven my 930 track car more than any of my other cars . I have had that same 930 since 1994 so I have been racing it for quite a long time. You may have missed my post in this thread where I based my opinion on experience from 10 years or so ago when I went from TB to CO . I became considerably faster than any other 911/930's in my area ( same as your area I am in Burlingame) after that up grade and I had previously had the trick TB suspension . I think that experience applies to the thread . I wasn't talking about my 935's.This is a 911 turbo forum so I assumed that is what we were talking about.
I don't follow the development of TBs these days so I guess it is possible the continual evolution of the torsion bar has closed the gap .Bottom line is we are talking about Porsche's.. inherently they handle and brake well.. so torsion bars or coil overs...I don't see how you can go wrong either way. Your gonna have a great time with your car.