Oh WTH. Going EFI. Have ???
05-26-2006, 01:37 AM
#16
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I did a head for a guy in Sweden who owned a 930 and claimed he got 600RWHP which I find impossiable. He has never faxed me the dyno sheets. Beyond that I see no real way to do it.
man, you get around Stephen
05-26-2006, 03:25 AM
#18
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Just go buy a GT3 instead, but then if you are like the rest of us you would need money for modding that too. My car has been under construction for sometime now and the while you are in there thing simply got out of control with a twenty year old car, keep your head about you and try and find someone who has a well done conversion to sell.
05-26-2006, 03:52 AM
#19
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diabolos88: Here is the swedish guy who claims he can build 600hp+ engines:
http://www.spezialmotorer.com/
http://www.spezialmotorer.com/
05-26-2006, 09:33 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by PorschePhD
The customer I did was Thor, not the company. I have no way of knowing if they were the same.
Is that the fella with a big hammer?
05-26-2006, 09:45 AM
#22
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LOL, I think so. 
There is a way tio achieve these numbers, but not without help. I could probably do it with the fuel head lines and injectors, but the problem would be running at idle. The amount of fuel needed to drive the top end would be insane and it is a fine line wiht the heads. You can crank the heck out of it but the idle and low end would be shot. We have done other type of cars that dragged and they didn't care because they we launching at 8K and never dropped below 3K. Even their it was so rich the plugs would foul if you weren't careful. It is such a fine balance to add fuel and keep them drivable.
One should never get caught ion the numbers game, that only is half the story.
There is a way tio achieve these numbers, but not without help. I could probably do it with the fuel head lines and injectors, but the problem would be running at idle. The amount of fuel needed to drive the top end would be insane and it is a fine line wiht the heads. You can crank the heck out of it but the idle and low end would be shot. We have done other type of cars that dragged and they didn't care because they we launching at 8K and never dropped below 3K. Even their it was so rich the plugs would foul if you weren't careful. It is such a fine balance to add fuel and keep them drivable.
One should never get caught ion the numbers game, that only is half the story.
05-26-2006, 10:36 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Guys,
REALISTICALLY, how far can I take the CIS system safely?
With the addition of Stephen's fuel head mod, headers, and a K27HFS (in addition to the mods the car already has), what numbers should I be expecting???
REALISTICALLY, how far can I take the CIS system safely?
With the addition of Stephen's fuel head mod, headers, and a K27HFS (in addition to the mods the car already has), what numbers should I be expecting???
05-26-2006, 11:11 AM
#25
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I think the biggest problem for most is this. They all want performance, but to get there costs a pretty penny. But when we sell, we lose out. For one reason or another, we all love the 930, but at some point, we feel it is time to sell. Who wants to lose 20-50%? Logically, parts are made similar. Is an aftermarket piston made for a Corvette better than a Porsche? But since the product is associated with the Marque, you immediately pay for it. I know there are other factors associated as well.
Why should an EFI kit cost so much? What I dont understand is that a manufacturer could sell so many more EFI units if the price was truly reasonable. By doing so, you could make up on the back end with volume of sales and tuning.
In my case, I know I will eventually sell my car. She is beautiful. But I want to do a learning curve here. I want to learn as much as possible on this car. Eventually I plan on moving over to a GT3.
Why should an EFI kit cost so much? What I dont understand is that a manufacturer could sell so many more EFI units if the price was truly reasonable. By doing so, you could make up on the back end with volume of sales and tuning.
In my case, I know I will eventually sell my car. She is beautiful. But I want to do a learning curve here. I want to learn as much as possible on this car. Eventually I plan on moving over to a GT3.
05-26-2006, 04:32 PM
#26
I would like to respond to some comments made here. I feel I am qualified to make these as I have paid the price for cheap and what turned out to be very poor work, and I now pay a premium price for what is in my opinion the best money can buy.
As quote by Stephen Kasper.
"Unfortunately you get what you pay for and cheap is easy, making it right is not."
Read this comment over and over. Understand it, and live it!! The problem with many vendors I have used in the past, is they only understand half of what I wanted and could produce and supply less than that. For what reason. There are many. Some have absolutely no idea of what it takes to do the job. They do know how to invoice and collect. I see it in all areas of the Porsche world. From machine work to assembly, to parts sales. Lets take the machining for example. I read many posts about where to go and get machining done. Most say go here. They do good work and the price is good. So many places supply what they feel is OK and we buy into it, as its cheap. I have paid for it in the past and until I saw the work I get now, I had no idea. Real good work takes time. Some say, hey its only a street car, not a race car. I have had that told to me many times by shops, who want it cheap, so their costs are low. Right is right, regardless of use. The time spent "doing whats required to do it right" is the increase. Good work as Stephen states costs.
"One should never get caught ion the numbers game, that only is half the story"
So many of us do. I have in the past. I thought I had "X" HP. I was told I did. Then when I was passed on a straight by a car that had less power, I questioned the number supplied. I was told it was me, the engine was in need of rebuilding etc. I had the engine re dyno'ed by someone else, and I had some 250 HP less. I did not feel the HP stated, but we all want to believe what we are told.
Now I get real numbers and can actually feel the difference. I have had work done where just the Cam was changed. I can always feel the difference. I know there are some here who know what I am talking about. There are companies out there who do the work and know how to do it, and produce HP you can feel.
"Logically, parts are made similar. Is an aftermarket piston made for a Corvette better than a Porsche? But since the product is associated with the Marque, you immediately pay for it. I know there are other factors associated as well. "
If you are comparing the domestic Piston manufacturers, no there is not any difference. In fact, mots of these companies make a Porsche Piston from the same forging as the Chevy Piston comes from. but if you compare these Pistons with Mahle, and other European Piston makers, the difference is plain to see. Again, you get what you pay for. Take a look at a Piston made here in the US and comapre it with one made in the UK. Its night and day. But in fairness, its whats accepted, that drives the quality. Those engine builders who want quality, current technology and lightweight componets do not shop at JE or the likes. If you want inexpensive "Walmart" parts, you buy from JE and the likes. If you want "Rolex" parts, you buy these from Piston makers who specialize in this high quality. Is there a differnce other than price. Yes there is. You just have to know what to look for.
Is all about what you expect and are prepared to accept. If you want it done right, want to have the best performance, etc., it comes down to the work and the parts included.
In the words of a good friend, " there are those that can see it wrong and fix it, and there are those that cannot see it at all".
Stephen, we have had our differences, but on this you are absolutely "bang on". Well done and keep promoting the "right way".
As quote by Stephen Kasper.
"Unfortunately you get what you pay for and cheap is easy, making it right is not."
Read this comment over and over. Understand it, and live it!! The problem with many vendors I have used in the past, is they only understand half of what I wanted and could produce and supply less than that. For what reason. There are many. Some have absolutely no idea of what it takes to do the job. They do know how to invoice and collect. I see it in all areas of the Porsche world. From machine work to assembly, to parts sales. Lets take the machining for example. I read many posts about where to go and get machining done. Most say go here. They do good work and the price is good. So many places supply what they feel is OK and we buy into it, as its cheap. I have paid for it in the past and until I saw the work I get now, I had no idea. Real good work takes time. Some say, hey its only a street car, not a race car. I have had that told to me many times by shops, who want it cheap, so their costs are low. Right is right, regardless of use. The time spent "doing whats required to do it right" is the increase. Good work as Stephen states costs.
"One should never get caught ion the numbers game, that only is half the story"
So many of us do. I have in the past. I thought I had "X" HP. I was told I did. Then when I was passed on a straight by a car that had less power, I questioned the number supplied. I was told it was me, the engine was in need of rebuilding etc. I had the engine re dyno'ed by someone else, and I had some 250 HP less. I did not feel the HP stated, but we all want to believe what we are told.
Now I get real numbers and can actually feel the difference. I have had work done where just the Cam was changed. I can always feel the difference. I know there are some here who know what I am talking about. There are companies out there who do the work and know how to do it, and produce HP you can feel.
"Logically, parts are made similar. Is an aftermarket piston made for a Corvette better than a Porsche? But since the product is associated with the Marque, you immediately pay for it. I know there are other factors associated as well. "
If you are comparing the domestic Piston manufacturers, no there is not any difference. In fact, mots of these companies make a Porsche Piston from the same forging as the Chevy Piston comes from. but if you compare these Pistons with Mahle, and other European Piston makers, the difference is plain to see. Again, you get what you pay for. Take a look at a Piston made here in the US and comapre it with one made in the UK. Its night and day. But in fairness, its whats accepted, that drives the quality. Those engine builders who want quality, current technology and lightweight componets do not shop at JE or the likes. If you want inexpensive "Walmart" parts, you buy from JE and the likes. If you want "Rolex" parts, you buy these from Piston makers who specialize in this high quality. Is there a differnce other than price. Yes there is. You just have to know what to look for.
Is all about what you expect and are prepared to accept. If you want it done right, want to have the best performance, etc., it comes down to the work and the parts included.
In the words of a good friend, " there are those that can see it wrong and fix it, and there are those that cannot see it at all".
Stephen, we have had our differences, but on this you are absolutely "bang on". Well done and keep promoting the "right way".
05-26-2006, 06:56 PM
#27
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This is what I am talking about. High performance parts for Amercian Manufacturers are much cheaper. Now, I have the money to spend on my vehicle, but I am alos smart about what I will get in return when I plan on selling my car. The point here is someone who makes high ends parts. If they lowered their prices, you would have a larger portion of people willing to convert, and as I said, if they did, there are other ways to make some gain up in the back end by tuning and volume. Standard economics. How many times have you heard people on here say the same thing over and over. It all comes down to what we all know. You will never get your money back. If we did, OMG, it would be a free for all on modifications. Sure, you might get a decerning individual who may be willing to pay what you put in the car, but 9 times out of 10, you will not.
05-26-2006, 07:35 PM
#28
Agreed. But quality requires time and effort. With the cost of doing business today, you will not find many places offering high end parts unless there is money to be made, and they can cover the costs. They just won't do it. Thats basic economics too.
I do what I do to my cars because of passion, not because I may lose money in the sale. Hell, if you added up what I have done and what I have got in return on the sale, I'd be committed. Passion has no understanding of cost or return value. But the joy of doing something and doing it well, is what i get as a return.
The place I spent my money has a wall hanging poster that reads," The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten".
I'm haunted more today by the money spent that was lost on bad work and poor quality parts, than and amount of money I have spent doing it right.
I do what I do to my cars because of passion, not because I may lose money in the sale. Hell, if you added up what I have done and what I have got in return on the sale, I'd be committed. Passion has no understanding of cost or return value. But the joy of doing something and doing it well, is what i get as a return.
The place I spent my money has a wall hanging poster that reads," The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten".
I'm haunted more today by the money spent that was lost on bad work and poor quality parts, than and amount of money I have spent doing it right.
05-26-2006, 08:04 PM
#29
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I looked into this exact porblem, making my car fast and fun but not losing huge sums on money to do so. I bought one someone else built, and had it slightly improved after I bought it (to make it mine;-)
05-26-2006, 11:08 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
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I am pricing out a one year job for my top customer that will cost them a little over $20million for 12 months of work. This will represent an overall reduction of about 4% this year, and more than 15% lower than 2004. My client will be looking for me to cut more from my price, but my prime argument will be, "you get what you pay for" and I am not willing to put all my time, money and effort (intellectual and physical) into a project that yields poor margins, forces me to provide a service that is "common". I will not lower my price to gain market share because it will dilute my services to companies willing to pay for the best.
I too will pay for what is the best, and like my profession, I am looking for value. I look at the support, quality of advice, track record (no pun intended), reputation, ease of use or easy to do business with, cost (present and future) and so on. There are good parts made in the US, but they will also cost you a premium because most likely it cost them a lot of time and money to get it right. I don't mind paying for that. Hell, I've even told Stephen to keep track of the time he and I spent on the phone so I could pay him for his expertise since it cost him (dearly in some cases) to get to where he is.
For me, I don't want people or companies that make the best to lower their cost - I want them to continually improve the quality of their service or product. I got better on the track by running with the best. Asking a company to lower their price for a good product is like asking the best track guys to slow down for me.
"I'm haunted more today by the money spent that was lost on bad work and poor quality parts, than any amount of money I have spent doing it right. - Simon"
Excellent point....
I too will pay for what is the best, and like my profession, I am looking for value. I look at the support, quality of advice, track record (no pun intended), reputation, ease of use or easy to do business with, cost (present and future) and so on. There are good parts made in the US, but they will also cost you a premium because most likely it cost them a lot of time and money to get it right. I don't mind paying for that. Hell, I've even told Stephen to keep track of the time he and I spent on the phone so I could pay him for his expertise since it cost him (dearly in some cases) to get to where he is.
For me, I don't want people or companies that make the best to lower their cost - I want them to continually improve the quality of their service or product. I got better on the track by running with the best. Asking a company to lower their price for a good product is like asking the best track guys to slow down for me.
"I'm haunted more today by the money spent that was lost on bad work and poor quality parts, than any amount of money I have spent doing it right. - Simon"
Excellent point....