Just curious Doc Stephen...how does a "well known engine builder/tuner" (of one the engines currently sitting in your showroom) f_ck up that bad? I can understand a novice working under a shade tree producing some real garbage, but it's shocking to me that a "pro shop" (other than Motor Shiester) building such an unreliable engine!!! Pretty scary! Sounds like the engines last just long enough for the builder to say..."driver error" when the poor car owner comes looking for an explanation or warranty for the failure!

 

You will find in this industry there are those that claim to be something they are not or do things they really don't. They might be regarded as an engine builder when in fact they are a sales person subletting work out to different wrenches. You get what you get.

Then there are those that have the "know it all" syndrome and listen to no one and can't be told anything. These guys often get cocky enough that they will overlook something because they know everything.

At the end of the day you can't know it all. It is always a learning process. Does that mean that I do everything without error. Hell no(just not too often ). But it does mean that I am man enough to step up and say I was wrong I should have caught that, I will fix it. In this business when you have achieved a "know it all" status it is time to retire. You have lost the very thing that drives most of us here. The passion for Porsches or cars in general.

 

Well put. I can tell you that if I weren't so damn eager to delve into this project as a learning experience by doing it myself, that your hands are about the only ones I'd let do the job...even though I have a respectable local shop only 15 miles away!!!!

 

Thank you sir. It is still my hobby

 

Sand man,

To answer some of your questions, you will need to remove all the covers to check the Head stud nuts. Looking at the bottom of the Cylinders at the parting line between the Head and the Cylinder will tell you if you need any sealing. I do not agree with the comment about sealing up the heads. He is aloowed his opinion and I repect that. All I can say is, take a look at the mess on the bottom of thr Cylinder. That is Combustion gases leaking. If it wasn't a problem, why then did the later engines have Gaskets and go thro all of the problems of updates. I can tell you that many dealers have PD update or fit the system over the factory method as it works so well.

There is also a misunderstanding by many that Rod bolts are made of cheese. In fact the bolts are the strongest part of a rod. If installed correctly, and stretched close to their yield point, they will outlive the rest of the Rod. Now if the engine is overrev'ed they are placed under termendous tension which causes the bolt to be stressed above its yield point and failure occurs.

As suggested, take the Rods out and check them. Mag them, check to see they are striaght, measure the BE and the PE and the CC length. Remember to measure the BE with the new bolts fitted. Before you do any of this, check the bearing shell both sides. The ID will show any problem with clearance and any trash that may have gone thro it. If you see any marks, then check the Crank Pin for damage. If seen, then the reason not to tear down the case is mute. Check the backside of the bearing shell. This will show any fretting and out of roundness of the BE. If the rod is bent or there is any misalignment then it will show here. If any detenation or head issues with the Pistons will show as a mark on this side as well.

As for the feel issue, if there is any binding as you put it, you can feel this when turning over the engine. The bearing will also show this.

I'm not trying to sound cheap here, just do things for a reason, not out of fear. many will suggest doing repairs for repairing sake. Its called "while your in there". Do it for a reason. If you intend to race the engine or put the engine into a situation where you may overrev the engine, then by all means repalce the Rod bolts with ARP types. But if you intend to use a daily driver and never run high revs, replace if you feel so with OEM bolts. OEM bolts are not made from choclate. They do work. Horses for courses as its said.

Spend the time and effort to make sure the engine parts are properely machined and all clearances etc are as perfect as you can make them. Take the advice others have suggested and you will have a very good engine to enjoy.

 

I really can't thank you all enough for taking your precious time to answer my questions in such extreme detail! I'm in the process of lining up a rental car to drive while the P-car is down. The sealing rings do make sense, but I'm also planning on using the new Supertec head studs which I've heard perform even better at keeping the heads from "floating" off the cylinders during "spirited" runs. I do plan on using the ARP rod bolts just for ***** and giggles. I guess I'll know if I'm spliting the case (or not) once I get it to short block.

There is deffinately some "gunk" on the underside of the heads...where the heads and cylinder meet on the drivers side bank (cylinders 1-3). This is not typical valve cover leakage either.

 

I don’t think that the Rod issue properly has been discussed. No one is suggesting that the rod bolts fail at will and should be changed for the hell of it. The issue is as described with over revving and larges amount of strain. The rod bolts in a stock motor unless abuse exists are not a problem. But it does come to a good question when it comes time to open the motor up. Stock bolts and nuts (these can never be reused) are about 110.00, give or take. ARP hardware is about 245.00. Is it worth the 135.00 difference not to replace them? Does it not make sense to do it? We aren’t talking about building Honda Civic here for comminuting. These are our toys. Do you give your children (if you have them) just the bare essentials or do you do more than that? I personally don’t understand why a person would not.

On the heads, Simon and I will agree we disagree. I whole heartily believe based on the many years of building motors that if done correctly and using sequence of tightening other than what is in the book you will have no issues with head sealing. Unless you are running more that 1 bar you will not have a leak. Don’t misread me, they have their place. Sand-man has issues because he has the OEM head studs. These can not be compared to what is on the market. Heck, looking at what the 993 and 964 did can’t be compared either, Porsche continued to use their crap bolts and expansion is an issue. What is on the market now is far better than what they even use in the present motors. So to blanket all heads need a sealing ring in my opinion is overkill. Ask for a census of the people that I have built motors for and they track them, drive them on the street, drag them…they are not having any issues with seepage or leaks. It is in the details of assembly and building it for the level of use.

We agree that all clearances should be checked. However here again when we look at the cost to do the lower end, it is cheap. Lower gasket set is about 45.00, mains are about 130.00 or so and chains, 39.00 a side. The kit comes with new washers and the nuts are cheap. Why would you not check the lower end out for that cost? It is a little time but if you are doing it yourself so what? Doing all of the motor and not doing the lower end why you are in there or only repairing one broken thing why you are in there only sets most owners up to revisit their mechanic in the near future. Why would they care if you do it now or later? Well now cost less if you are paying someone to work on your stuff. Later lets them make more money. It is 40-50 hours to tear and build a motor down. If you do the head studs you are looking at 30-40 hours. So you don’t go in the lower end at all. If your motor is not a 20K garage queen example and this work is done you are possibly looking at that same cost plus some in the future if the lower end needs attention. There is no possible way one can measure out all that needs to be checked with the case closed. So when you revisit your wrench you are into another 50 hours, gaskets, plus other parts. Was it wise to skip the “Lower gasket set is about 45.00, mains are about 130.00 or so and chains, 39.00 a side” and piece of mind knowing that the lower end was measured out and done and is right? For me no. I am not that kind of guy. I never wanted half of my stuff right and the other stuff I think is right. Again, this is my opinion and philosophy but I don’t want my customers coming to me a year or two later and saying “should have” and “now this is costing me”. Besides, when you remove the head studs regardless of how well you cover everything you will get crap everywhere. Are you comfortable enough to ensure that these slivers of junk didn’t make their way into the case some how?

As Simon said (no pun, promise) do things because they make sense. Not out of fear. Think ahead to the future and what you will or might do with the car. Then go from there.

 

Enough said...the f_cker will be split open! Not out of fear, but because it's really the right thing to do! Not opening the case would be "like having an orgasm out of one nut"! And we don't want that! HA! I love this car. I want it to be right. My wife is giving me a "get out of jail" pass to fix this thing. I CAN NOT afford to have engine issues in another few months. As I undergo the process, I will try to document it for you all.

And maybe when I get ready for re-assembly, Stephen will be kind enough to advise me on the proper technique for torquing and lapping my heads/cylinders.

 

LOL, one nut eh. Now that is funny stuff!!

Help will be here when you need it. Just say the word!

 

ok Thanks I will give you a call when I get off of night shift I'm working 6pm till 6 am 6 days a week right now until we get all the power restored from the hurricane.

 

I thought you guys would like to see what another engine builder advised - this is a direct quote from my same question posted on Pelican. The person answering my question is well known and respected engine builder Henry Schmidt:
So there you have it.