Thanks Jean for the feedback. I figure, I might as well have my Motronic modified for pressure sensing and run a Stage 3 callibration map, than go with a MOTEC and pay another few thousand to install and tune! It's a no brainer for me. The ECU is already there as is all the loom etc. All I'd have to do is plug in a modified Motronic, vacuum line, TPS and away I go!

Jean, when you say "on the road callibration", what's the process for doing this? What measurements are taken and plotted against?

Bruce, Protomotive Turbosystems run very high fuel rail pressures and run injectors at very high duty cycles. They can get 700HP out of 944/951 Turbo injectors

Works well! I'm running that on my car and it's flawless

 

My point on the duty cycles is that running them high is risky, in my opinion. You want a margin for screw up at high boost. I aim for 80% or so at full boost. The 90's starts to get iffy--an injector is working pretty hard up there, and if that effort causes a failure, it's goodbye piston, etc.. My own injectors are 75 lb Rochesters. Harder to tune but they can flow lots and lots of fuel...

The Motronic set-up sounds interesting, and a helluva lot less of a pain in the *** the Motec has been. Motec is an extremely trick unit, but it requires a significant knowledge base and lots of patience.

 

Bruce,

I used to know the pressures and duty cycles.. the pressure is significantly higher.. believe it or not I think he has crank HP of 700 with the 52's in some cars... I have known Todd for 15 years.. I forgot alot... I am a believer of smaller injectors at higher pressure for atomization/driveability though I get a lot of debate on this....

The 5050 is great.. and yes the clutch has littel play.. amazingly with the 7.5 CR I actually don;t really need to rev it and have learned to just let it out quickly at low revs... with the TT's pulling so low 1st gear actually is perfect.. a stock g50 1st gear is too short when you get tt's,quick boost/high HP IMO... ... but I woul dbe much happier on back roads with a g50's ratois....though I think the 5050 is lower then your 4 sp ratio in 1st... I get approx 45/89/138/180/2xx in gears...at 7200 rpm..

Good luck!! If I can be of any help!!

Jean, thx on the ideas on euro sales... if I don' get reasonable $$, I will probably keep it.. I do love her...

 

Ed--that sounds excellent. I've got a single turbo app, so I'm going to try a blueprinted G50. I'll switch the ratios if and when I need to, and hope the mainshaft is up to the power (Jim Patrick says it will be) . If I "let the clutch out quickly" in my four speed, I'd kill the engine. Every time. Had to rev the sucker seriously just to keep the engine going as I went from a standing start. Pain in the butt, and basically made the car undriveable for my better half. Once rolling, it was fine, but I'm looking forward to a bit more butter in the process. Add a WEVO or Hargett G50 shifter and I'll be good to go.

Keep us posted on this car. Whoever gets it is going to get an amazing deal. Imagine: all the trials and tribulations of upgrading like this done by the PO, and you get the results, for pennies on the dollar. Nowadays, it's the only way I'd do it. But I was young and foolish once...

 

Very cool.. btw, the stock g50's will handle a ton of power for a relatively long time... again IMO... I thinki Juan Ruiz and his friend both use G50's... (theyre 9 second cars)... I think you'll be very happy with your change!! to say the least...you may want to put a pump and cooler in jsut in case if yur going to do DE/track things though as you probably know...

I do need to be reminded how dumb I am to sell .. I hadn't 'truly' cleaned her in over a year... it makes it tough...

....

 

edpurplett,
keep it bro. You'll thank us someday for telling you so.

 

ProtoCab
I was lucky to have Todd do the calibration onhis laptop. My engine was built in the US, then engine dyno'd and calibrated and sent back to me. Then Todd travelled and calibrated it on the road with his laptop.. It just needed some fine tuning on idle etc... It is a beast and runs perfectly.

I was going Motec but living where I do, and not having a tuner here made it a bad choice. This Motronic setup runs as smooth as a stock one except for a slightly faster idle (1000RPMs) due to the cams, you will never look back. Doing this Motronic pressure sensing setup on a twin-plug turbo engine and have it running like this, makes Motec worthless unless you are a pro-racer maybe. You need to have a N/A ECU, I guess you already do.

Bruce, my car had an output of 705HP at 1.1 Bar on engine dyno and the AFR readings were in the mid-high 10's at peak, a BSAC of 0.7, this tells you how rich , cool and safe it is running and mainly how efficiently. I doubt you can ever get close to this with a MAF, modified or not.

You DO need to have a taller first gear, it is practically useless. It accelerates in 3rd like a stock TT in 1st gear, spinning 315s Sport Cup tires...at 1.1 Bar! What Ed is trying to buy is maybe faster than mine still, other than my weight advantage

 

Bruce,

In refernce to driveability ., after driving a '89 CIS, ruf modded k27, headered, exhaust car this weekend... I realized how tractable the pressure sensing cars actually are, particualrily if you remember throttle position is a factor... I can pull to a partial stop, and if I don't fully stop I can pull away in second (in a g5050).. and not bog.... I forgot that most CIS cars won;t take that kind of treatment..

BTW, his car was very nice, and he was a VEYR nice gent.. but it made me realize just how incredibly different a heavily modded car is... in handling/transitions, cornering and while his car was fast.. it seemed incredibly slow by comparisin... the graph of the last dyno today(on modded CIS car) jelled it all... big torque quick... for a coupla' K and then a fall off... versus big torque over a much longer period with the hp curve much higher in RPM... somewhat differnt to drive quickly... it's also why you NEED syspension upgrades with big HP.. you forget that sometimes until you drive a stockish car... it's well sorted out but the handlig limits parallel the power... and I can see why a stock suspension would cause problems /insufficiency while driving fast in a quick car... you don't have time to think, you can only react...

I never saw my car driven until yesterday.. OMG I almost sh*t myself... it's so hunkered down and sounds so incredibly good... and I didn't realize how truly insane it sounds until I drove the other car which sounded good too.. but the wail when on boost is almost ungodly....(think two Suzuki Hyabusas with good exhausts..).. Scott probably won't say anything untill we kiss or kill the deal :-).. ...

 

As a Motec guy, I junked CIS long ago. My issue isn't bogging from fuel delivery issues. It's that funky 930 gearing combined with a cable 935 clutch. Not for very much longer, though...

And my suspension hasn't been stock forever, it seems. Thicker torsion bars, lowered, helper springs in back, Charley bars front and back...

Stands to reason you shouldn't more than double an engine's output and keep its braking and suspension stock. That's really where the money comes in--to do it right, you have to basically rebuild a car.

 

Yup.. Sorry I didn't realize you went Motec already.... Have you talked with Geoffrey?? ..there always seem to be possible 'tweaks' left on them... though he's on the wrong coast for you...

.. speaking of clutch.. I forget that he 935 is, I dunno, 5 times heavier than stock :-)..

Let us know what you think when you change trannies..

 

Ok boys, I have to chime in to say that Ed’s machine is one cherry, badass machine! He was gracious in his description of my ’89 by comparison. My car is molasses slow by comparison. He’s not likely fibbing about having 600 or so thoroughbreds in that rear end… Oh and it does handle very nicely when the road does bend from the straits where you’re juicing it. Clutch takes some getting used to, but tranny shifts very nicely, just like a stock G50/50. It is FAST, sounds great, as he says, and is in nice condition. Interior is in AWESOME shape; check out the dash pic! I highly recommend that everyone get one!

Scott

 

Jean, yes I already run a OEM Carrera Motronic ECU in my car (BTW, it was a Carrera) with the Protomotive Stage3 Software. I'm considering going to a Garrett Ball Bearing Turbo and then having Todd modify my Motronic ECU for pressure sensing and running a base Stage3 map. It may require some ultra-fine tuning for my setup, but Todd said all I'd need to do is get some volt measurements off the transducer, e-mail him the readings at various loads points and he'll send me re-callibrated maps for my ECU. Where else can you get that kind of service?

Forme, sticking with the Motronic is a no brainer. After all, RuF ran a modified Motronic on their CTR's, so it is proven technology, even if a bit out-dated now

Great discussion guys. Ed, sorry to hijack your thread. Back to the program

 

For those that are interested in the Motronic setup, you can use a MAF setup and the results are awesome.. Set and forget, when the MAF conversion is done properly.
For those who want some extra, you can use a PiggyBack to alter your fuel (and timing when used with our wasted spark for the Motronic).
For those who want to use the Motronic but require the features of a standalone, we have a package that converts your Motronic DME to operate as a standalone (you can alter the maps from your PC while you are tuning, then store few images to access via a rotary switch).

The 911 section on the site is not up to date, email me directly if you need additional info.

 

Ed--

Yes, I know Geoffrey. Haven't talked to him in awhile, but he was a godsend in the earlier days of my tuning. The man actually took his own time to look at my config files from the logging feature on the Motec, suggest tweaks by e-mailed attachments, read the results from my logger on the next runs, do more tweaks, etc. As far as I'm concerned he walks on water. He got the program to within shouting distance (from a LONG way off) and then my local guy finally came up to speed on the system after a 3-day on-site crash course from a Motec rep and finished it up. Cold start even works pretty well now

600 hp at the crank (512 to the ground) at 1 bar. Don't run it up there all that often, though. I "de-tune" (through a Motec cockpit switch) to about .8 bar most of the time. Thing is a real slingshot, though--no broad, flat torque curves here. That makes for some challenges, but also big grins

 

You guys got some real serious power