Are we a dying breed?
06-04-2004, 09:27 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Not sure about the 930 being solely a dying breed. In general, the whole sports car field has been a dying breed ever since SUV's became the craze in the past 15 years. I have always had a sports car with high horsepower, from a modded Supra TT to a Viper. All showed its capability on horsepower but no badge recognition like a Porsche or Ferrari or other exotics. There is always something worth in a proven product. Granted that there are fewer people into performance cars and even less who can afford a weekend toy whether its a 930, F355 or a Pantera. It's always longer to sell a performance car. Kinda like selling a house for $500K vs a home for $4M. There will be more buyers for the cheaper one and a select lucky folks who can afford anything.
06-07-2004, 03:20 PM
#19
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To add to Red Rocket's comments, its particular gratifying if you can stay close to a GT3 on a track (not just straight line speed but corners too 
)... we are talking a Porsche race car that has 35 more years of technology in it.
)... we are talking a Porsche race car that has 35 more years of technology in it.
06-08-2004, 06:58 PM
#20
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I've owned 'em all. 356,early 911S,911SC,911 Carrera,964,993,996, and of course 930's. I currently own two factory 930S's, a coupe and a cabriolet. (just have a thing for factory slantnoses) Nothing, and I mean nothing, gives me the satisfaction of a well tuned 930. Of all the collector cars I've owned, muscle,sports, and vintage race cars(DP935), a good 930 is the real deal. I realize that technology has made many choices available. But there is a reason that the 930 has achieved icon status.
06-08-2004, 10:33 PM
#21
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This is an interesting and quite possibly emotion evoking discussion, yet we can draw satisfaction from 2 emerging trends in the 911 3.0/3.3 community.
First: Younger audiences including those 25-35 (I'm in this group) are highly interested in these cars, and coming into money every day. Yes it's less expensive up front to finance a newer (and more plastic) performance car; however this generation grew up with the 911 Turbo/930 being the hot car, we read about them before we had the freedom to drive them.
Second: The inviduals who maintained these cars when they were new at the dealers are retiring, one by one they are departing from the industry to pursue other interests; fortunately, some are making themselves available as resident experts (believe you me, we just hired two local Bay Area legends both on a part time basis). There is no substitute for experience either.
The Turbo market (in my opinion) is simply becoming a classic car market, complete with a following that expands in diversity daily. It takes a true fan to have the desire and dedication to own these precious beasts.
There's no death here, I see a special sort regrouping, and new members emerging with respect and admiration.
-my $0.02
Austin
DEVEK
First: Younger audiences including those 25-35 (I'm in this group) are highly interested in these cars, and coming into money every day. Yes it's less expensive up front to finance a newer (and more plastic) performance car; however this generation grew up with the 911 Turbo/930 being the hot car, we read about them before we had the freedom to drive them.
Second: The inviduals who maintained these cars when they were new at the dealers are retiring, one by one they are departing from the industry to pursue other interests; fortunately, some are making themselves available as resident experts (believe you me, we just hired two local Bay Area legends both on a part time basis). There is no substitute for experience either.
The Turbo market (in my opinion) is simply becoming a classic car market, complete with a following that expands in diversity daily. It takes a true fan to have the desire and dedication to own these precious beasts.
There's no death here, I see a special sort regrouping, and new members emerging with respect and admiration.
-my $0.02
Austin
DEVEK
06-10-2004, 11:50 PM
#22
Here's my 2 cents on this subject. I own an SC and it is a great car, but the 930 is an icon, pure and simple;every other manufacturer soon came out with a turbo after the 930's superior performance became known. I still remember Road and Track's original road test and them being blown away (no pun intended) by it. When Pirelli debuted the P-7, perhaps the original super performance tire, what car did they use to demonstrate their new product? A 930 of course....
I read every 930 test with eagerness, with pure lust in my heart. However real life set in and between the job, kids and mortgage I managed to buy an SC which I love but it isn't a 930. After my dad passed on I realize that you only live once and that, as the saying goes, "It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all". Well my 930 search is ongoing.
In the latest issue of Excellence magazine there is an article praising the 87-89 Carreras. A statement is made that Porsches of that era were hand made using the highest quality materials and that Porsches of today are more plastic, etc. I believe that the same applies to the 930. A client of mine has a 01 996TT and all the techno BS just doesn't do it for me.
These newer Japanese cars like the Subaru WRX and Mitsu Evo are great cars, but they have no soul. Just as I would take a Ducati 998 over the latest Japanese 1000cc crotch rocket, I'd take a beautiful 930 over most of the cars made today.
On a final note, everyone at work asks me about cars when they go car shopping. I've gone with them on test drives. Based on my recommendations, they've purchased the Lexus(Toyota) RX300, the Acura(Honda) TL and the Infiniti (Nissan) G35X and these individuals love their cars and I recommended these automobiles because these individuals are not true car enthusiasts. Hell, I'd like to buy a CRV because they are reliable, solid safety rating and good mpg-but this would be my wife's ride, not mine. If I had to have a Japanese sportscar, that's a no brainer-Mazda RX-8. Why? Because Mazda use of the rotary is innovative, just like Porsche's use of the turbo......
PS-How many times have the big 3 Japanese manufacturers won LeMans?
I read every 930 test with eagerness, with pure lust in my heart. However real life set in and between the job, kids and mortgage I managed to buy an SC which I love but it isn't a 930. After my dad passed on I realize that you only live once and that, as the saying goes, "It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all". Well my 930 search is ongoing.
In the latest issue of Excellence magazine there is an article praising the 87-89 Carreras. A statement is made that Porsches of that era were hand made using the highest quality materials and that Porsches of today are more plastic, etc. I believe that the same applies to the 930. A client of mine has a 01 996TT and all the techno BS just doesn't do it for me.
These newer Japanese cars like the Subaru WRX and Mitsu Evo are great cars, but they have no soul. Just as I would take a Ducati 998 over the latest Japanese 1000cc crotch rocket, I'd take a beautiful 930 over most of the cars made today.
On a final note, everyone at work asks me about cars when they go car shopping. I've gone with them on test drives. Based on my recommendations, they've purchased the Lexus(Toyota) RX300, the Acura(Honda) TL and the Infiniti (Nissan) G35X and these individuals love their cars and I recommended these automobiles because these individuals are not true car enthusiasts. Hell, I'd like to buy a CRV because they are reliable, solid safety rating and good mpg-but this would be my wife's ride, not mine. If I had to have a Japanese sportscar, that's a no brainer-Mazda RX-8. Why? Because Mazda use of the rotary is innovative, just like Porsche's use of the turbo......
PS-How many times have the big 3 Japanese manufacturers won LeMans?
06-11-2004, 02:05 AM
#23
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The original statement offered by Kardos was he wasn't seeing much enthusiasm in the marketplace except from an older audience that was largely uninformed about the car and its heritage. He concluded by saying
To the last point, many kids still love and admire Porsches, but they think of the company as a manufacturer of high performance street car, not race cars. Not surprising since mainstream racing in the US seems limited to NASCAR and Indy cars.
In the 70's and 80's, the 930 and variants of the car were at the forefront of American and European racing. That's what made the car an icon. That situation does not exist today, so its hard to argue the 930 will continue to be seen in the same context. It simply has been and will continue to be replaced by other newer and higher profile vehicles.
There will always be a following, but it will diminish over time until it consists of mainly collectors. So it's not necessarily a dying breed, but the breed is definately getting smaller and more focused.
In the 80's and early 90's when young kids thought of a pure race car it was the Porsche.
In the 70's and 80's, the 930 and variants of the car were at the forefront of American and European racing. That's what made the car an icon. That situation does not exist today, so its hard to argue the 930 will continue to be seen in the same context. It simply has been and will continue to be replaced by other newer and higher profile vehicles.
There will always be a following, but it will diminish over time until it consists of mainly collectors. So it's not necessarily a dying breed, but the breed is definately getting smaller and more focused.
06-11-2004, 08:11 AM
#24
JBH hits it right on the head with his contention that the owners group is more focused, i.e. people like we here on Rennlist. The turbo hasn't been part of the "gold chain crew" for some time.
06-12-2004, 08:29 AM
#25
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I'm 38, so I must concede that my 930 ownership could have something to do with impressionable high school years. But the car stands by itself anyway. I still have people say "Yea, THAT'S the one I like" when they see my car.
06-12-2004, 08:38 PM
#26
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Well, I did sell my car and guess who bought it? An English gentleman, whose age is above 50. It was kind of funny, that when we first met we talked about 30 minutes about how beautiful this car is, how the wide body looks a lot better than the regular Carrera and on and on and on.....
I still belive that after a while people will forget how great this car is. Porsche, the company, doesn't do anything anymore to improve the image or to create a new myth about the brand. (Cayenne anyone...???? (Ferdinand Porsche is crying in his grave))
I think it is a proof that they still try to harvest from the old glory when they redisigned the newest 911 to the old round headlights.
Well, whatever....I sold mine, and will buy another one when I come back to the Sates. Untill then I will stop and look and admire at these beutifull beasts whenever I see one.
I still belive that after a while people will forget how great this car is. Porsche, the company, doesn't do anything anymore to improve the image or to create a new myth about the brand. (Cayenne anyone...???? (Ferdinand Porsche is crying in his grave))
I think it is a proof that they still try to harvest from the old glory when they redisigned the newest 911 to the old round headlights.
Well, whatever....I sold mine, and will buy another one when I come back to the Sates. Untill then I will stop and look and admire at these beutifull beasts whenever I see one.
06-12-2004, 11:37 PM
#27
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Kardos:
I don't understand your comments about Porsche, the company. The company has produced a GT2, GT3, and Carrera GT - all of which are absolutely incredible cars by any standard.
Don't blame Porsche - they race in venues that are largely ignored in this country. They do race and they do have factory sponsored teams (quick...turn on Speed Channel and watch them dominate their class at LeMans), so what else would you have them do? I once posed this question in another forum and other than "stop the Cayenne", people really couldn't offer any thing of much substance.
It's time to stop focusing on the Cayenne and look at what else the company is doing.
I don't understand your comments about Porsche, the company. The company has produced a GT2, GT3, and Carrera GT - all of which are absolutely incredible cars by any standard.
Don't blame Porsche - they race in venues that are largely ignored in this country. They do race and they do have factory sponsored teams (quick...turn on Speed Channel and watch them dominate their class at LeMans), so what else would you have them do? I once posed this question in another forum and other than "stop the Cayenne", people really couldn't offer any thing of much substance.
It's time to stop focusing on the Cayenne and look at what else the company is doing.
06-13-2004, 10:40 AM
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JBH:
They do produce outstanding cars, but how do we know, that how these cars perform under extreme circumstances, such as in a Formula 1 race? In the 80's when you bought a Porsche you also bought the myth with it. When you sat on one of those cars, you knew that the suspension, the brakes, and certain other elements came directly from the research of the the F1 engeneering team. Not that you ever going to use them,(maybe a little it bit on the autobahn), but you knew that when you want to change lanes at a speed of 150 mph you would rather do it in a Porsche than anything else. Porsche created this myth, that when you buy the car, you also buy the feeling of what it must be like in a true racing car. When Nelson Piquet won the F1 in the Brabham-BMW, BMW wasn't able to sell this notion. People thought BMW must be a good car, but hey....it's not a Porsche!!!! I think that if they want to regain the old myth about their cars, they need to get back into the F1 circus, the Indy 500 and maybe a few more.
About the Cayenne.... One of Porsche's great thing is the distinctive styling. I really can't tell the difference from 20 yards if there is a Cayenne or a VW Toure is standing in the parking lot. I was in a Porsche dealership 2 days ago and I asked the salesmen, that what is the difference between the 2 cars. He began to explain the performance differences, but when I asked about the body style, he smilingly acknowledge it, that there is too much really.
Also I really don't know what the Cayenne can do. It's been out for 2 years now, and I haven't heard that they won any endurance races or the mother of all the, Paris-Dakar rally. At this point the Cayenne proved nothing.
They do produce outstanding cars, but how do we know, that how these cars perform under extreme circumstances, such as in a Formula 1 race? In the 80's when you bought a Porsche you also bought the myth with it. When you sat on one of those cars, you knew that the suspension, the brakes, and certain other elements came directly from the research of the the F1 engeneering team. Not that you ever going to use them,(maybe a little it bit on the autobahn), but you knew that when you want to change lanes at a speed of 150 mph you would rather do it in a Porsche than anything else. Porsche created this myth, that when you buy the car, you also buy the feeling of what it must be like in a true racing car. When Nelson Piquet won the F1 in the Brabham-BMW, BMW wasn't able to sell this notion. People thought BMW must be a good car, but hey....it's not a Porsche!!!! I think that if they want to regain the old myth about their cars, they need to get back into the F1 circus, the Indy 500 and maybe a few more.
About the Cayenne.... One of Porsche's great thing is the distinctive styling. I really can't tell the difference from 20 yards if there is a Cayenne or a VW Toure is standing in the parking lot. I was in a Porsche dealership 2 days ago and I asked the salesmen, that what is the difference between the 2 cars. He began to explain the performance differences, but when I asked about the body style, he smilingly acknowledge it, that there is too much really.
Also I really don't know what the Cayenne can do. It's been out for 2 years now, and I haven't heard that they won any endurance races or the mother of all the, Paris-Dakar rally. At this point the Cayenne proved nothing.
06-13-2004, 01:49 PM
#29
I remember when I was a kid I used to see the 930's parked right up front of the five star hotels. This was like 20 years back. Today I drive my 930 to any hotel and still have it parked up front at the entrance to any hotel. I dont think I need to say more than the 930 still demands hell of a respect and looks as good as it did many years ago.
06-13-2004, 04:38 PM
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Zsolt:
* The 930 was not derived from F1 racing
* Porsche's involvement in F1 (within the last two decades) was engine development only. This was done under private financing through TAG
* Porsche would just as soon forget Indy - they failed miserably in that venue.
* Porsche's reputation was built on the road racing circuits of Can-Am, IMSA, Trans-Am, LeMans, etc. Your 930 is a legacy of the cars built during that era.
Unfortunately in the US, interest in road racing ranks right up there with curling. If not for Speed Channel, you would never see it. The most important road race in the world (LeMans) could only be seen on cable or satellite TV.
I don't disagree that Porsche should try to climb back into the upper eschelons of racing, but that takes big big $$$ and I'm not sure that from Porsche's perspective it will provide a suitable return in the form of increased sales. Now if they could get in NASCAR....
Again, I don't care about what Porsche does or doesn't do as long as they keep making the finest performance cars in the world. Like you, I love my C2 Turbo and I think I will keep it forever, but as soon as I can get the money together, I'm going to find a GT3 to drive at the track. Who knows, maybe some day I'll buy a Cayenne too.
* The 930 was not derived from F1 racing
* Porsche's involvement in F1 (within the last two decades) was engine development only. This was done under private financing through TAG
* Porsche would just as soon forget Indy - they failed miserably in that venue.
* Porsche's reputation was built on the road racing circuits of Can-Am, IMSA, Trans-Am, LeMans, etc. Your 930 is a legacy of the cars built during that era.
Unfortunately in the US, interest in road racing ranks right up there with curling. If not for Speed Channel, you would never see it. The most important road race in the world (LeMans) could only be seen on cable or satellite TV.
I don't disagree that Porsche should try to climb back into the upper eschelons of racing, but that takes big big $$$ and I'm not sure that from Porsche's perspective it will provide a suitable return in the form of increased sales. Now if they could get in NASCAR....
Again, I don't care about what Porsche does or doesn't do as long as they keep making the finest performance cars in the world. Like you, I love my C2 Turbo and I think I will keep it forever, but as soon as I can get the money together, I'm going to find a GT3 to drive at the track. Who knows, maybe some day I'll buy a Cayenne too.