what cd box to use-is permatune junk?
11-25-2003, 05:17 PM
#31
Instructor
Second, the multiple sparks are a marketing gimmick and
provide no additional real ignition benefit. If it were as simple as adding multiple
sparks, all OEMs would buy the patent and use it. The key is multiple points of
ignition via twin plugs and NOT delayed sparks at a SINGLE point in the combustion
chamber.
At very least, pretty much anyone who has installed an MSD on a carbed or MFI 911 reports that the car idles better and often has better low speed driveability. In that case, who cares if there is no max hp increase (which I doubt there is, as you say). MSD also has the option of a built in soft rev limiter. OEM cars have no requirements for either of these features with modern EFI and (for performance cars) multiple coils.
M&W's own homepage is here - http://www.mwignitions.com/ . I have no opinion of them (never used one).
provide no additional real ignition benefit. If it were as simple as adding multiple
sparks, all OEMs would buy the patent and use it. The key is multiple points of
ignition via twin plugs and NOT delayed sparks at a SINGLE point in the combustion
chamber.
At very least, pretty much anyone who has installed an MSD on a carbed or MFI 911 reports that the car idles better and often has better low speed driveability. In that case, who cares if there is no max hp increase (which I doubt there is, as you say). MSD also has the option of a built in soft rev limiter. OEM cars have no requirements for either of these features with modern EFI and (for performance cars) multiple coils.
M&W's own homepage is here - http://www.mwignitions.com/ . I have no opinion of them (never used one).
11-25-2003, 11:23 PM
#32
Lorenfb,
The webb page appears to show the mistake here. I called them today and asked. The pic shows the CDI unit, but is named an Igniter unit. The specs are for the CDI unit and below are for an Igniter unit.
As for the performance increase, try one and see. I'll send you my old one to try if you like. Maybe then you may be asured of what I am saying. You let me know. I'll put my money were my mouth is!
The webb page appears to show the mistake here. I called them today and asked. The pic shows the CDI unit, but is named an Igniter unit. The specs are for the CDI unit and below are for an Igniter unit.
As for the performance increase, try one and see. I'll send you my old one to try if you like. Maybe then you may be asured of what I am saying. You let me know. I'll put my money were my mouth is!
11-26-2003, 12:38 AM
#33
It appears we're talking about two different units on this thread.
1. MSD -
Some of my customers tell me that the idle increased when they installed
the MSD. They also mentioned that MSD said to advance the timing a few
degrees which would account for the increase. One needs to check the
timing to verify that the timing was unchanged. Next, you need to check
the HC which would indicate a better combustion, if the HC decreased.
2. PR10
The specs on this unit, if really a CDI, are not as good as the Bosch unit.
The key is the energy in joules and spark rise time. You need to check the
HC to see if the combustion is better or check it on a dyno (not easy)
versus the Bosch unit.
Other than the above, if you guys feel happy then that's really all that
matters. Personally, if I had an SC or earlier Porsche, I doubt that I'd
go thru all the trouble to use another ignition other than a Bosch.
That's because they are so simple & bullet-proof (less components
make things more reliable).
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
1. MSD -
Some of my customers tell me that the idle increased when they installed
the MSD. They also mentioned that MSD said to advance the timing a few
degrees which would account for the increase. One needs to check the
timing to verify that the timing was unchanged. Next, you need to check
the HC which would indicate a better combustion, if the HC decreased.
2. PR10
The specs on this unit, if really a CDI, are not as good as the Bosch unit.
The key is the energy in joules and spark rise time. You need to check the
HC to see if the combustion is better or check it on a dyno (not easy)
versus the Bosch unit.
Other than the above, if you guys feel happy then that's really all that
matters. Personally, if I had an SC or earlier Porsche, I doubt that I'd
go thru all the trouble to use another ignition other than a Bosch.
That's because they are so simple & bullet-proof (less components
make things more reliable).
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
11-26-2003, 02:50 AM
#34
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CamB,
Thanks for the link to the M & W website.
I've ordered one from PD, and will be setting it up in my car as a road-ready spare, (incase the 20+ year-old Bosch fails on one of my long road trips).
Thanks for the link to the M & W website.
I've ordered one from PD, and will be setting it up in my car as a road-ready spare, (incase the 20+ year-old Bosch fails on one of my long road trips).
11-26-2003, 03:55 AM
#35
Went to the M&W website.
They first highlight the thermal design of their CDI package. Efficient CDI
designs dissipate very little heat not requiring extensive CAM designs.
They then compare their circuit layout to the Perma-Tune. Actually the
Perma-Tune (PT) is a better design;
1. PT has the large components mounted to the case and not to the circuit board
which results in "cold" solder joints from vibration.
2. PT uses a single capacitor for energy transfer versus two, more reliable.
3. PT uses less components overall.
4. PR10 uses an I.C. (a chip), reduces reliability
Most any CDI design is a good CDI design. Most all CDIs produce the same
performance results. The key is reliability which results from using high
quality parts and as few as possible.
Actually, the PT units were very reliable until they starting potting the units
which resulted in thermal expansion problems that lead to intermittent
failures. Porsche used them in 1976 (no potting) as an OEM unit for their
point ignition cars. The guy that designed them worked with Von Brown
on the V-2 rocket. It's a clever and simple design.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
They first highlight the thermal design of their CDI package. Efficient CDI
designs dissipate very little heat not requiring extensive CAM designs.
They then compare their circuit layout to the Perma-Tune. Actually the
Perma-Tune (PT) is a better design;
1. PT has the large components mounted to the case and not to the circuit board
which results in "cold" solder joints from vibration.
2. PT uses a single capacitor for energy transfer versus two, more reliable.
3. PT uses less components overall.
4. PR10 uses an I.C. (a chip), reduces reliability
Most any CDI design is a good CDI design. Most all CDIs produce the same
performance results. The key is reliability which results from using high
quality parts and as few as possible.
Actually, the PT units were very reliable until they starting potting the units
which resulted in thermal expansion problems that lead to intermittent
failures. Porsche used them in 1976 (no potting) as an OEM unit for their
point ignition cars. The guy that designed them worked with Von Brown
on the V-2 rocket. It's a clever and simple design.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
11-26-2003, 11:12 AM
#36
Your argument was ok, until you said the PT is a good design. Then it went into the toilet. Opinions are good to have, but facts are based upon real life testing and most of us here have tested the PT unit. This is why people chnge over to MSD and this new unit from Performance Developments.
11-26-2003, 11:16 AM
#37
Also, an IC reduces reliability? Where have you been living for the last 20 years? All electronic components now are digital to increase reliability. Are you still using your Valve radio and wind up phone? No offense here, but you are really not making any sense now.
11-26-2003, 12:57 PM
#38
First, I said the old Perma-Tune. Second, an I.C. is potentially less reliable
than a circuit with no I.C. The old Perma-Tune uses no I.C.s nor small signal
transistors, just a few diodes, two power transistors, and an SCR. The PR10
use the same as a Perma-Tune with the addition of an I.C. and other parts.
Your PR10 is much much more complex than either the Bosch or Perma-Tune.
As I said before, if that's what makes you happy then use it, but carry a Bosch
unit as a spare. There's really no long term (many years) reliability data on this
new unit (PR10). We know about the Bosch (some indicate over 20 years) and
the Perma-Tune (the silver - total junk, the old blue not as good as Bosch but
generally not intermittent as the silver).
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
than a circuit with no I.C. The old Perma-Tune uses no I.C.s nor small signal
transistors, just a few diodes, two power transistors, and an SCR. The PR10
use the same as a Perma-Tune with the addition of an I.C. and other parts.
Your PR10 is much much more complex than either the Bosch or Perma-Tune.
As I said before, if that's what makes you happy then use it, but carry a Bosch
unit as a spare. There's really no long term (many years) reliability data on this
new unit (PR10). We know about the Bosch (some indicate over 20 years) and
the Perma-Tune (the silver - total junk, the old blue not as good as Bosch but
generally not intermittent as the silver).
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
11-26-2003, 01:15 PM
#39
M42racer:
You need learn to read better and understand what's being said.
Also, as I said early on in this thread, you need to backup your statements
with facts & data not just your typical hyperbole. I think I've presented
a lot of facts. It sounds like you just have an interest ($) in promoting
this PR10.
You are one of those guys who has his cryptic I.D. and we don't really
know who you are, so please tell us. You can easily find out who I am.
Let's not hide behind cryptic I.D.s so you can make stupid and insulting
statements, e.g. you stated the I.C. in the PR10 was digital. Do you
know this for a fact or could it be analog (There are analog I.C.s too)?
Now, let's hear some intelligent comments from you, if it's possible.
Loren
You need learn to read better and understand what's being said.
Also, as I said early on in this thread, you need to backup your statements
with facts & data not just your typical hyperbole. I think I've presented
a lot of facts. It sounds like you just have an interest ($) in promoting
this PR10.
You are one of those guys who has his cryptic I.D. and we don't really
know who you are, so please tell us. You can easily find out who I am.
Let's not hide behind cryptic I.D.s so you can make stupid and insulting
statements, e.g. you stated the I.C. in the PR10 was digital. Do you
know this for a fact or could it be analog (There are analog I.C.s too)?
Now, let's hear some intelligent comments from you, if it's possible.
Loren
11-26-2003, 04:35 PM
#40
Instructor
We know about the Bosch (some indicate over 20 years)
This is the most important thing about the Bosch to me - 30 years even. I wouldn't change to an MSD for the sake of it, but I would if the Bosch broke. Getting a Bosch CDI fixed in NZ is not possible.
Loren's rebuilds them, so he isn't exactly impartial (but he did disclose that up front, and provides arguments why Bosch is better).
This is the most important thing about the Bosch to me - 30 years even. I wouldn't change to an MSD for the sake of it, but I would if the Bosch broke. Getting a Bosch CDI fixed in NZ is not possible.
Loren's rebuilds them, so he isn't exactly impartial (but he did disclose that up front, and provides arguments why Bosch is better).
11-26-2003, 06:57 PM
#41
So after the last post we now know why Loren feels the way he does. I can read quite well thank you. As for my comments, I have no interest than to help promote a really good product. As for the Pro 10 CDI, it has been artound for some 15 yeaqrs in other variants. BTW, for all those who wish to know, this same unit is the Ignition used by MoTec, and LinL etc. This same Ignition has won the many long distance races, and is the Ignition of choice in the Australian V8 series. Is this unit digital, YES. I;'m not hear to bash the Bosch unit, just offer up a really good alternative. Obviously, Loren, your business is rebuilding them, so your motives to disagree with me are clear. The cost of the Boisch units new is verry high, and the cost of repair is also high, when you can buy a new unit, more modern, and which HAS proved to be better. Just because the Bosch unit has been around since the early days, does not make it better. Same goes for the PD unit. But running time has proved its worth, along with the applications it has been put into.
Stay with old technology, or buy new. Its all about that. In the end, its all about the performance. I felt the difference and so has all the other buyers, I understand.
Happy holidays!
Stay with old technology, or buy new. Its all about that. In the end, its all about the performance. I felt the difference and so has all the other buyers, I understand.
Happy holidays!
11-26-2003, 08:47 PM
#43
I cannot match your electronic knowledge here. But who cares! We the consumer, just want to know that the product is better made, newer technology and we can FEEL the difference. Warranty issues are another factor that is important too. The PD unit comes with a limited 12 months warranty BTW. If you want to match/better the internals, you better come at this unit with more than an old Bosch/Permatune unit.
11-27-2003, 12:20 PM
#44
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What a pissing match this has turned into!!
I just want to thank Cam and m42racer for the info.
I'm certainly not going to replace my (functioning) Bosch with a PD unit. But will have one as a spare in case the Bosch dies on some hinterland backroad.
And BTW....just what is the new, outright (no core) price of a Bosch CDI?
I just want to thank Cam and m42racer for the info.
I'm certainly not going to replace my (functioning) Bosch with a PD unit. But will have one as a spare in case the Bosch dies on some hinterland backroad.
And BTW....just what is the new, outright (no core) price of a Bosch CDI?
11-27-2003, 02:31 PM
#45
I agree. All I have tried to do is offer up an alternative, with all the correct information. I am certainly not qualified to offer up the electronic spec's but can give personal experience. The PD unit is an alternative, which offers a more modern design, and has proven to those who have used them, more performance. The performance increase was not the original intention, but an after fact from better combustion, better spark energy etc. For those who do not agree, or do not wish to use, then Bosch and Permatune offer units.
If they are available, I have heard of numbers of $ 1800.00 for a new Bosch unit. I believe the repair on these units can be as much as $ 400+. So the PD unit is a very alternative just on price alone.
For those who wish to try, it is a very good unit.
Its unfortunate that we all at times are very cynical about new products. I know I have been in the past. But there is new technology available for these older cars, that does make them better. There are also some who wish to stay in the past. In this case, there is a good reason for that. $$$.
Loren, we agree to disagree here. Well its good to know you belive in your product of choice. I believe in the PD unit. Just trying to spread the word.
If they are available, I have heard of numbers of $ 1800.00 for a new Bosch unit. I believe the repair on these units can be as much as $ 400+. So the PD unit is a very alternative just on price alone.
For those who wish to try, it is a very good unit.
Its unfortunate that we all at times are very cynical about new products. I know I have been in the past. But there is new technology available for these older cars, that does make them better. There are also some who wish to stay in the past. In this case, there is a good reason for that. $$$.
Loren, we agree to disagree here. Well its good to know you belive in your product of choice. I believe in the PD unit. Just trying to spread the word.