Need help vetting a 3.2
11-05-2016, 06:35 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Compression/leak down numbers look good. You're going to get a little seepage on a 30 year old 911. Nothing to worry about IMO.
Those paint meter numbers seem high. Pretty sure it's had some respray from the readings.
Quoted from Nathan1
- These cars were painted by hand by a person named Hans or Franz. As such there is variability car to car and panel to panel. Late model Porsche's (986-996 to current) were painted in a factory with robotically applied paint, as such these cars have VERY consistent paint meter readings as there is no human variation painter to painter and day to day. These late model cars will read between 4-5 mils almost without exception.
-I own 3 3.2 cars that have 100% original paint and they meter between a low of 3.5mils to a high of about 6.5 mils.
-The most important thing on any particular car is that it is consistent panel to panel. So for example I usually grab a reading in the door jam as a baseline number, this is usually the lowest you will find anywhere on the car, usually in the range of 2.5-4mils. I go over each panel, at least 5-6 readings on various spots on each panel, I want to see a tight range of values. So if I see between 4-5 mils on all panels and then one panel pops up 8 or higher, I inspect closer. Usually you can then see evidence of repair/repaint. However if I am metering a car and it meters slightly higher but fairly consistent, say 5.5-7mils but it does on every panel and had a higher range reading in the jams (say 5mils) and the texture and consistency of the paint looks "right" I would believe that to be original paint. It just seems some had more paint then others.
-Usually it will be fairly obvious, you will find a range of 4-6mils and a panel shows an 11. You start testing in more spots on the same panel and you might find even higher. Thats definitive. I have never seen OE paint read higher than about a 7.
- Dont rely solely on your paint meter, use a critical eye and a LED spotlight. On these cars they have a fair amount of orange peel. Make sure all the panels match for orange peel, look for areas where you can see where they were blended (look in obvious blend areas A pillars, C pillars, headlight bucket to fender area, etc), look for masking lines in the jams (LED light really helps here). If a panel was replaced or stripped down to bare metal and no filler applied I have seen them meter in the range of 4-5mils, so again inspect everything.
-How rare is original paint- In my experience better than 50% of sellers will tell you there car has original paint. When you ask them on what basis are they making that claim, they usually say "it sure looks original". I find they are usually being honest, they just don't have the tools to make the definitive answer on the subject. In my experience less than 5% of air-cooled cars truly have 100% original paint. Its VERY rare.
- Obsessing over original paint- If that is what you want be prepared to pay a fairly dear premium. I know many of the people in these forums will tell you that the high prices some of these cars trade for don't happen, but in my experience the truly top 1% cars with verified original paint bring a exponential premium and trade hands behind the scenes. On my cars I am obsessed with original paint and I will pay the premium to get it, is that worth it? Only a person can decide that, it is for me but for a driver quality car I wouldn't necessarily get spun up on it.
-Repairs done at the port or selling dealer- One area that is really gray that rarely gets talked about is the cars that had paint repair done at the factory, the port or the selling dealer. Back in the air-cooled days these cars were shipped RORO (roll on roll off) on the deck of a ship. I worked at a Porsche dealer back in this era and probably 10-20% of the cars showed up with flaws of some kind (minor scratches, flaws in the factory applied paint, etc) . We never gave it a 2nd thought, they were new and expensive cars and customers wanted them flawless. We sent them to the body shop and had repairs made. This also happened before we got them at the port. Were customers ever told? No. It just didn't matter then.
Those paint meter numbers seem high. Pretty sure it's had some respray from the readings.
Quoted from Nathan1
- These cars were painted by hand by a person named Hans or Franz. As such there is variability car to car and panel to panel. Late model Porsche's (986-996 to current) were painted in a factory with robotically applied paint, as such these cars have VERY consistent paint meter readings as there is no human variation painter to painter and day to day. These late model cars will read between 4-5 mils almost without exception.
-I own 3 3.2 cars that have 100% original paint and they meter between a low of 3.5mils to a high of about 6.5 mils.
-The most important thing on any particular car is that it is consistent panel to panel. So for example I usually grab a reading in the door jam as a baseline number, this is usually the lowest you will find anywhere on the car, usually in the range of 2.5-4mils. I go over each panel, at least 5-6 readings on various spots on each panel, I want to see a tight range of values. So if I see between 4-5 mils on all panels and then one panel pops up 8 or higher, I inspect closer. Usually you can then see evidence of repair/repaint. However if I am metering a car and it meters slightly higher but fairly consistent, say 5.5-7mils but it does on every panel and had a higher range reading in the jams (say 5mils) and the texture and consistency of the paint looks "right" I would believe that to be original paint. It just seems some had more paint then others.
-Usually it will be fairly obvious, you will find a range of 4-6mils and a panel shows an 11. You start testing in more spots on the same panel and you might find even higher. Thats definitive. I have never seen OE paint read higher than about a 7.
- Dont rely solely on your paint meter, use a critical eye and a LED spotlight. On these cars they have a fair amount of orange peel. Make sure all the panels match for orange peel, look for areas where you can see where they were blended (look in obvious blend areas A pillars, C pillars, headlight bucket to fender area, etc), look for masking lines in the jams (LED light really helps here). If a panel was replaced or stripped down to bare metal and no filler applied I have seen them meter in the range of 4-5mils, so again inspect everything.
-How rare is original paint- In my experience better than 50% of sellers will tell you there car has original paint. When you ask them on what basis are they making that claim, they usually say "it sure looks original". I find they are usually being honest, they just don't have the tools to make the definitive answer on the subject. In my experience less than 5% of air-cooled cars truly have 100% original paint. Its VERY rare.
- Obsessing over original paint- If that is what you want be prepared to pay a fairly dear premium. I know many of the people in these forums will tell you that the high prices some of these cars trade for don't happen, but in my experience the truly top 1% cars with verified original paint bring a exponential premium and trade hands behind the scenes. On my cars I am obsessed with original paint and I will pay the premium to get it, is that worth it? Only a person can decide that, it is for me but for a driver quality car I wouldn't necessarily get spun up on it.
-Repairs done at the port or selling dealer- One area that is really gray that rarely gets talked about is the cars that had paint repair done at the factory, the port or the selling dealer. Back in the air-cooled days these cars were shipped RORO (roll on roll off) on the deck of a ship. I worked at a Porsche dealer back in this era and probably 10-20% of the cars showed up with flaws of some kind (minor scratches, flaws in the factory applied paint, etc) . We never gave it a 2nd thought, they were new and expensive cars and customers wanted them flawless. We sent them to the body shop and had repairs made. This also happened before we got them at the port. Were customers ever told? No. It just didn't matter then.
11-06-2016, 07:25 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Bloose993TT
I am interested in your write-up on paint, I note upfront that you provide context, ".. is original paint worth it? Only a person can decide that... for a driver car I wouldn't get necessarily spun up on it." On the other hand it seems overly so that original paint impacts value. Why? Is this a ploy by buyers to ding (no pun intended) a car to get buyer to reduce price? My '87 was repainted in 2008. PPG, original factory color (Carmine), rear window and windshield out, over 80 line items listed on the labor sheet, two stage refinish, corrosion protection, a CD with 20 photos supplied showing the process, all who have seen the car are amazed, some are Porsche knowledgeable.
Your thoughts?
Thank you.
I am interested in your write-up on paint, I note upfront that you provide context, ".. is original paint worth it? Only a person can decide that... for a driver car I wouldn't get necessarily spun up on it." On the other hand it seems overly so that original paint impacts value. Why? Is this a ploy by buyers to ding (no pun intended) a car to get buyer to reduce price? My '87 was repainted in 2008. PPG, original factory color (Carmine), rear window and windshield out, over 80 line items listed on the labor sheet, two stage refinish, corrosion protection, a CD with 20 photos supplied showing the process, all who have seen the car are amazed, some are Porsche knowledgeable.
Your thoughts?
Thank you.
11-07-2016, 08:04 AM
#18
Team Owner
Get a local independent to give You a thorough ppi
Heads studs snap on Carreras. But not nearly as common as sc
Valve guides are carrer weak spot. A lot harder to see as usually oil usage is the key indicator
You may spot a fouled plug but that is last stages. Oil smoke in decel can be covered by a good cat
So spend the money and get ppi.
Heads studs snap on Carreras. But not nearly as common as sc
Valve guides are carrer weak spot. A lot harder to see as usually oil usage is the key indicator
You may spot a fouled plug but that is last stages. Oil smoke in decel can be covered by a good cat
So spend the money and get ppi.
11-08-2016, 09:41 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the info guys, these questions were helping me determine if I wanted to even send the car to a PPI. There were some other undisclosed issues that arose, so I moved on to another car that is being PPI'd tomorrow at a very reputable air cooled Porsche specialist. Fingers crossed it all checks out. Cheers!
11-10-2016, 10:42 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
11-11-2016, 01:02 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Bloose993TT
I am interested in your write-up on paint, I note upfront that you provide context, ".. is original paint worth it? Only a person can decide that... for a driver car I wouldn't get necessarily spun up on it." On the other hand it seems overly so that original paint impacts value. Why? Is this a ploy by buyers to ding (no pun intended) a car to get buyer to reduce price? My '87 was repainted in 2008. PPG, original factory color (Carmine), rear window and windshield out, over 80 line items listed on the labor sheet, two stage refinish, corrosion protection, a CD with 20 photos supplied showing the process, all who have seen the car are amazed, some are Porsche knowledgeable.
Your thoughts?
Thank you.
I am interested in your write-up on paint, I note upfront that you provide context, ".. is original paint worth it? Only a person can decide that... for a driver car I wouldn't get necessarily spun up on it." On the other hand it seems overly so that original paint impacts value. Why? Is this a ploy by buyers to ding (no pun intended) a car to get buyer to reduce price? My '87 was repainted in 2008. PPG, original factory color (Carmine), rear window and windshield out, over 80 line items listed on the labor sheet, two stage refinish, corrosion protection, a CD with 20 photos supplied showing the process, all who have seen the car are amazed, some are Porsche knowledgeable.
Your thoughts?
Thank you.
As for your driver condition air cooled 911, a nice original paint vehicle might bring a small premium over a nice repaint depending on the originality of car in question. But as you know, paint is only a part of many other factors that play a role in deciding the value of the a vehicle.
