Paint thickness
12-28-2014, 02:21 PM
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Paint thickness
Been scouring the internet and it has been very hard to find an "official" paint thickness chart for the 3.2. Been reading that between 4-8 mil is the norm. Does anyone have their readings for an 84-86 coupe? There is a high mile (I imagine the greater the miles the greater chance of respray) 85 Coupe nearby that I am trying to schedule an appointment for. I assume the fenders would be the first offenders of thick paint.
12-28-2014, 05:54 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
This is an area of great controversy as everyone has an opinion as to what values indicate "original" paint vs. repaint. A few things I have learned having inspected 100's of these cars over the years:
- These cars were painted by hand by a person named Hans or Franz. As such there is variability car to car and panel to panel. Late model Porsche's (986-996 to current) were painted in a factory with robotically applied paint, as such these cars have VERY consistent paint meter readings as there is no human variation painter to painter and day to day. These late model cars will read between 4-5 mils almost without exception.
-I own 3 3.2 cars that have 100% original paint and they meter between a low of 3.5mils to a high of about 6.5 mils.
-The most important thing on any particular car is that it is consistent panel to panel. So for example I usually grab a reading in the door jam as a baseline number, this is usually the lowest you will find anywhere on the car, usually in the range of 2.5-4mils. I go over each panel, at least 5-6 readings on various spots on each panel, I want to see a tight range of values. So if I see between 4-5 mils on all panels and then one panel pops up 8 or higher, I inspect closer. Usually you can then see evidence of repair/repaint. However if I am metering a car and it meters slightly higher but fairly consistent, say 5.5-7mils but it does on every panel and had a higher range reading in the jams (say 5mils) and the texture and consistency of the paint looks "right" I would believe that to be original paint. It just seems some had more paint then others.
-Usually it will be fairly obvious, you will find a range of 4-6mils and a panel shows an 11. You start testing in more spots on the same panel and you might find even higher. Thats definitive. I have never seen OE paint read higher than about a 7.
- Dont rely solely on your paint meter, use a critical eye and a LED spotlight. On these cars they have a fair amount of orange peel. Make sure all the panels match for orange peel, look for areas where you can see where they were blended (look in obvious blend areas A pillars, C pillars, headlight bucket to fender area, etc), look for masking lines in the jams (LED light really helps here). If a panel was replaced or stripped down to bare metal and no filler applied I have seen them meter in the range of 4-5mils, so again inspect everything.
-How rare is original paint- In my experience better than 50% of sellers will tell you there car has original paint. When you ask them on what basis are they making that claim, they usually say "it sure looks original". I find they are usually being honest, they just don't have the tools to make the definitive answer on the subject. In my experience less than 5% of air-cooled cars truly have 100% original paint. Its VERY rare.
- Obsessing over original paint- If that is what you want be prepared to pay a fairly dear premium. I know many of the people in these forums will tell you that the high prices some of these cars trade for don't happen, but in my experience the truly top 1% cars with verified original paint bring a exponential premium and trade hands behind the scenes. On my cars I am obsessed with original paint and I will pay the premium to get it, is that worth it? Only a person can decide that, it is for me but for a driver quality car I wouldn't necessarily get spun up on it.
-Repairs done at the port or selling dealer- One area that is really gray that rarely gets talked about is the cars that had paint repair done at the factory, the port or the selling dealer. Back in the air-cooled days these cars were shipped RORO (roll on roll off) on the deck of a ship. I worked at a Porsche dealer back in this era and probably 10-20% of the cars showed up with flaws of some kind (minor scratches, flaws in the factory applied paint, etc) . We never gave it a 2nd thought, they were new and expensive cars and customers wanted them flawless. We sent them to the body shop and had repairs made. This also happened before we got them at the port. Were customers ever told? No. It just didn't matter then.
Long answer to your question, hopefully it helps!
- These cars were painted by hand by a person named Hans or Franz. As such there is variability car to car and panel to panel. Late model Porsche's (986-996 to current) were painted in a factory with robotically applied paint, as such these cars have VERY consistent paint meter readings as there is no human variation painter to painter and day to day. These late model cars will read between 4-5 mils almost without exception.
-I own 3 3.2 cars that have 100% original paint and they meter between a low of 3.5mils to a high of about 6.5 mils.
-The most important thing on any particular car is that it is consistent panel to panel. So for example I usually grab a reading in the door jam as a baseline number, this is usually the lowest you will find anywhere on the car, usually in the range of 2.5-4mils. I go over each panel, at least 5-6 readings on various spots on each panel, I want to see a tight range of values. So if I see between 4-5 mils on all panels and then one panel pops up 8 or higher, I inspect closer. Usually you can then see evidence of repair/repaint. However if I am metering a car and it meters slightly higher but fairly consistent, say 5.5-7mils but it does on every panel and had a higher range reading in the jams (say 5mils) and the texture and consistency of the paint looks "right" I would believe that to be original paint. It just seems some had more paint then others.
-Usually it will be fairly obvious, you will find a range of 4-6mils and a panel shows an 11. You start testing in more spots on the same panel and you might find even higher. Thats definitive. I have never seen OE paint read higher than about a 7.
- Dont rely solely on your paint meter, use a critical eye and a LED spotlight. On these cars they have a fair amount of orange peel. Make sure all the panels match for orange peel, look for areas where you can see where they were blended (look in obvious blend areas A pillars, C pillars, headlight bucket to fender area, etc), look for masking lines in the jams (LED light really helps here). If a panel was replaced or stripped down to bare metal and no filler applied I have seen them meter in the range of 4-5mils, so again inspect everything.
-How rare is original paint- In my experience better than 50% of sellers will tell you there car has original paint. When you ask them on what basis are they making that claim, they usually say "it sure looks original". I find they are usually being honest, they just don't have the tools to make the definitive answer on the subject. In my experience less than 5% of air-cooled cars truly have 100% original paint. Its VERY rare.
- Obsessing over original paint- If that is what you want be prepared to pay a fairly dear premium. I know many of the people in these forums will tell you that the high prices some of these cars trade for don't happen, but in my experience the truly top 1% cars with verified original paint bring a exponential premium and trade hands behind the scenes. On my cars I am obsessed with original paint and I will pay the premium to get it, is that worth it? Only a person can decide that, it is for me but for a driver quality car I wouldn't necessarily get spun up on it.
-Repairs done at the port or selling dealer- One area that is really gray that rarely gets talked about is the cars that had paint repair done at the factory, the port or the selling dealer. Back in the air-cooled days these cars were shipped RORO (roll on roll off) on the deck of a ship. I worked at a Porsche dealer back in this era and probably 10-20% of the cars showed up with flaws of some kind (minor scratches, flaws in the factory applied paint, etc) . We never gave it a 2nd thought, they were new and expensive cars and customers wanted them flawless. We sent them to the body shop and had repairs made. This also happened before we got them at the port. Were customers ever told? No. It just didn't matter then.
Long answer to your question, hopefully it helps!
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Gabe150 (02-11-2024)
12-29-2014, 05:00 PM
#5
Depends on what you intend to do with the car.
Are you are looking for a National Concours winning trailer queen, or a nice driver?
These are two different markets... prepare to pay 100% price premium for the former, (and take a $20K hit if a bird craps on it...), and lack of use may cause mechanical issues.
These cars are approaching 30 years old. they get stone chips, door dings and scratches.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about a car with first-rate professional paint repair or even a full respray. If anything, this indicates a careful owner who did not cut corners.
Now shoddy, cheap paint is another matter entirely, but a top notch body/paint guy can tell you at PPI.
Are you are looking for a National Concours winning trailer queen, or a nice driver?
These are two different markets... prepare to pay 100% price premium for the former, (and take a $20K hit if a bird craps on it...), and lack of use may cause mechanical issues.
These cars are approaching 30 years old. they get stone chips, door dings and scratches.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about a car with first-rate professional paint repair or even a full respray. If anything, this indicates a careful owner who did not cut corners.
Now shoddy, cheap paint is another matter entirely, but a top notch body/paint guy can tell you at PPI.
12-29-2014, 10:23 PM
#6
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
This is an area of great controversy as everyone has an opinion as to what values indicate "original" paint vs. repaint. A few things I have learned having inspected 100's of these cars over the years:
- These cars were painted by hand by a person named Hans or Franz. As such there is variability car to car and panel to panel. Late model Porsche's (986-996 to current) were painted in a factory with robotically applied paint, as such these cars have VERY consistent paint meter readings as there is no human variation painter to painter and day to day. These late model cars will read between 4-5 mils almost without exception.
-I own 3 3.2 cars that have 100% original paint and they meter between a low of 3.5mils to a high of about 6.5 mils.
-The most important thing on any particular car is that it is consistent panel to panel. So for example I usually grab a reading in the door jam as a baseline number, this is usually the lowest you will find anywhere on the car, usually in the range of 2.5-4mils. I go over each panel, at least 5-6 readings on various spots on each panel, I want to see a tight range of values. So if I see between 4-5 mils on all panels and then one panel pops up 8 or higher, I inspect closer. Usually you can then see evidence of repair/repaint. However if I am metering a car and it meters slightly higher but fairly consistent, say 5.5-7mils but it does on every panel and had a higher range reading in the jams (say 5mils) and the texture and consistency of the paint looks "right" I would believe that to be original paint. It just seems some had more paint then others.
-Usually it will be fairly obvious, you will find a range of 4-6mils and a panel shows an 11. You start testing in more spots on the same panel and you might find even higher. Thats definitive. I have never seen OE paint read higher than about a 7.
- Dont rely solely on your paint meter, use a critical eye and a LED spotlight. On these cars they have a fair amount of orange peel. Make sure all the panels match for orange peel, look for areas where you can see where they were blended (look in obvious blend areas A pillars, C pillars, headlight bucket to fender area, etc), look for masking lines in the jams (LED light really helps here). If a panel was replaced or stripped down to bare metal and no filler applied I have seen them meter in the range of 4-5mils, so again inspect everything.
-How rare is original paint- In my experience better than 50% of sellers will tell you there car has original paint. When you ask them on what basis are they making that claim, they usually say "it sure looks original". I find they are usually being honest, they just don't have the tools to make the definitive answer on the subject. In my experience less than 5% of air-cooled cars truly have 100% original paint. Its VERY rare.
- Obsessing over original paint- If that is what you want be prepared to pay a fairly dear premium. I know many of the people in these forums will tell you that the high prices some of these cars trade for don't happen, but in my experience the truly top 1% cars with verified original paint bring a exponential premium and trade hands behind the scenes. On my cars I am obsessed with original paint and I will pay the premium to get it, is that worth it? Only a person can decide that, it is for me but for a driver quality car I wouldn't necessarily get spun up on it.
-Repairs done at the port or selling dealer- One area that is really gray that rarely gets talked about is the cars that had paint repair done at the factory, the port or the selling dealer. Back in the air-cooled days these cars were shipped RORO (roll on roll off) on the deck of a ship. I worked at a Porsche dealer back in this era and probably 10-20% of the cars showed up with flaws of some kind (minor scratches, flaws in the factory applied paint, etc) . We never gave it a 2nd thought, they were new and expensive cars and customers wanted them flawless. We sent them to the body shop and had repairs made. This also happened before we got them at the port. Were customers ever told? No. It just didn't matter then.
Long answer to your question, hopefully it helps!
- These cars were painted by hand by a person named Hans or Franz. As such there is variability car to car and panel to panel. Late model Porsche's (986-996 to current) were painted in a factory with robotically applied paint, as such these cars have VERY consistent paint meter readings as there is no human variation painter to painter and day to day. These late model cars will read between 4-5 mils almost without exception.
-I own 3 3.2 cars that have 100% original paint and they meter between a low of 3.5mils to a high of about 6.5 mils.
-The most important thing on any particular car is that it is consistent panel to panel. So for example I usually grab a reading in the door jam as a baseline number, this is usually the lowest you will find anywhere on the car, usually in the range of 2.5-4mils. I go over each panel, at least 5-6 readings on various spots on each panel, I want to see a tight range of values. So if I see between 4-5 mils on all panels and then one panel pops up 8 or higher, I inspect closer. Usually you can then see evidence of repair/repaint. However if I am metering a car and it meters slightly higher but fairly consistent, say 5.5-7mils but it does on every panel and had a higher range reading in the jams (say 5mils) and the texture and consistency of the paint looks "right" I would believe that to be original paint. It just seems some had more paint then others.
-Usually it will be fairly obvious, you will find a range of 4-6mils and a panel shows an 11. You start testing in more spots on the same panel and you might find even higher. Thats definitive. I have never seen OE paint read higher than about a 7.
- Dont rely solely on your paint meter, use a critical eye and a LED spotlight. On these cars they have a fair amount of orange peel. Make sure all the panels match for orange peel, look for areas where you can see where they were blended (look in obvious blend areas A pillars, C pillars, headlight bucket to fender area, etc), look for masking lines in the jams (LED light really helps here). If a panel was replaced or stripped down to bare metal and no filler applied I have seen them meter in the range of 4-5mils, so again inspect everything.
-How rare is original paint- In my experience better than 50% of sellers will tell you there car has original paint. When you ask them on what basis are they making that claim, they usually say "it sure looks original". I find they are usually being honest, they just don't have the tools to make the definitive answer on the subject. In my experience less than 5% of air-cooled cars truly have 100% original paint. Its VERY rare.
- Obsessing over original paint- If that is what you want be prepared to pay a fairly dear premium. I know many of the people in these forums will tell you that the high prices some of these cars trade for don't happen, but in my experience the truly top 1% cars with verified original paint bring a exponential premium and trade hands behind the scenes. On my cars I am obsessed with original paint and I will pay the premium to get it, is that worth it? Only a person can decide that, it is for me but for a driver quality car I wouldn't necessarily get spun up on it.
-Repairs done at the port or selling dealer- One area that is really gray that rarely gets talked about is the cars that had paint repair done at the factory, the port or the selling dealer. Back in the air-cooled days these cars were shipped RORO (roll on roll off) on the deck of a ship. I worked at a Porsche dealer back in this era and probably 10-20% of the cars showed up with flaws of some kind (minor scratches, flaws in the factory applied paint, etc) . We never gave it a 2nd thought, they were new and expensive cars and customers wanted them flawless. We sent them to the body shop and had repairs made. This also happened before we got them at the port. Were customers ever told? No. It just didn't matter then.
Long answer to your question, hopefully it helps!
12-29-2014, 11:38 PM
#7
I met Nathan at this years Parade in Monterey and saw his stunning 88 red original coupe. A few weeks ago he was in the Sacramento area on business and he came by my home to talk cars. He put his meter on my 89 coupe and I was happy with his comments.
If you buy a 911 from Nathan you can be sure it is solid well sorted car. He is passionate about Porsches and most important is very honest.
If you buy a 911 from Nathan you can be sure it is solid well sorted car. He is passionate about Porsches and most important is very honest.
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12-30-2014, 01:28 AM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Nathan: Great post. If you allow me these two questions:
What is your experience with the average condition of original paint cars (3.2 - '84-'89 generation)? What type of scars is still acceptable?
Also... Is it acceptable to repaint front valances and side mirrors peppered with road chips on an otherwise acceptable original paint car?
What is your experience with the average condition of original paint cars (3.2 - '84-'89 generation)? What type of scars is still acceptable?
Also... Is it acceptable to repaint front valances and side mirrors peppered with road chips on an otherwise acceptable original paint car?
12-30-2014, 05:48 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Nathan: Great post. If you allow me these two questions:
What is your experience with the average condition of original paint cars (3.2 - '84-'89 generation)? What type of scars is still acceptable?
Also... Is it acceptable to repaint front valances and side mirrors peppered with road chips on an otherwise acceptable original paint car?
What is your experience with the average condition of original paint cars (3.2 - '84-'89 generation)? What type of scars is still acceptable?
Also... Is it acceptable to repaint front valances and side mirrors peppered with road chips on an otherwise acceptable original paint car?
The question of what is the "average condition" of these cars with original paint varies widely. I have an SC that has over 100k miles and the paint is all original and INSANELY nice, frankly I can't figure how the original owner drove it all those miles with minimal chips, no scratches, etc. If I told someone it had 20k miles they would believe me. On the other hand I have seen cars with very low original miles and the paint shows lots of chips, nicks, scratches, etc. Its a combination of how it was cared for and where/when it was driven.
The challenge with original paint is the constant fight between originality and condition. I HATE when I go to shows and there is a car that the owner is super proud of the fact that his car is a "survivor" or has original paint and there are more chips than paint. In my book its only a "Survivor" IF it SURVIVED WELL! For cars like that I would rather have a well executed re-spray, just too ugly to tolerate.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the guys who have dirty cars, covered with chips/dings who wear them like a badge of honor, that is AWESOME! They aren't trying to make a statement about the aesthetic condition of their car, they are making a statement of how much they enjoy DRIVING their cars! I have total respect for this.
As i indicated before, my experience tells me less than 5% of these cars are truly wearing all original paint. Now how many of those are wearing all original and nearly flawless original paint? Thats a VERY small number.
For the original paint cars with "scars" I try my best to preserve original paint if its possible with minor corrections such as well executed touch up, painless dent repair, paint correction, etc. If I can't get the car to a level where the average person would consider the car to be "very nice" then I would move to doing paint work. Some people consider bumpers, valences and mirrors to be "freebies" and don't count. I think they do, but I would much rather have those items painted than for example a quarter panel, door, fender, etc.
Here are 2 of my 3.2 and a 911SC with original paint:
My 1988 I showed at Parade 2014:
My Black 86 3.2 Carrera Coupe:
1981 911SC, 117k miles. It helps that its a light color (Chiffon) but the original owner was just VERY careful (and a little lucky!). It has a few minor chips I have touched up but looks better than most 20k miles cars:
Lest anyone think I only have perfect cars, here is my FAVORITE 911 I own. Its a 1971 911E in Ivory that is wearing original paint and lots of chips. Just don't want to make it perfect because I love driving it!
12-30-2014, 10:20 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Nathan: Thanks for your reply.
01-03-2015, 06:06 PM
#13
Each panel should be nearly the same, i believe its single stage paint on these cars meaning no clear coat, few i've done have averaged 4-5 each panel
Clean it real well and keep that paint protected
You can do a lot to bring single stage paint back to life
Clean it real well and keep that paint protected
You can do a lot to bring single stage paint back to life
01-03-2015, 08:34 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
When did Porsche switch to two-stage (color+clearcoat) paint?
My '86 Indian Red appears to be single stage
Last edited by ADias; 01-03-2015 at 08:44 PM. Reason: added color info
