Any reason to stay away from euro spec car?
06-10-2014, 11:23 PM
#1
7th Gear
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Any reason to stay away from euro spec car?
I read through some of the posts on euro spec 3.2 cars and was curious what the general feeling was. I am not in California but do have emissions test in my area, can always go with an antique plate if it doesn't pass. But are there any downsides to buying a euro spec mid 80's car these days?
06-11-2014, 05:04 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Nominal 10.3:1 engines with no knock sensor. Yeah, fixed a few with broken ring lands (including one of my own) on our CA 91 octane. Elsewhere in the country, probably not as much of a problem.
06-11-2014, 08:12 PM
#4
I read through some of the posts on euro spec 3.2 cars and was curious what the general feeling was. I am not in California but do have emissions test in my area, can always go with an antique plate if it doesn't pass. But are there any downsides to buying a euro spec mid 80's car these days?
more hp and torque
trans cooler on the 915 versions
a bit lighter
06-11-2014, 09:20 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Eh, we never noticed much of a difference in temps. Until you fitted a real cooler, anyway. Some pipes with a few cooling fins wrapped around don't do much.
POS federalization when it first came over? You wouldn't believe how hacked some of the poor things were. (Best ones were those that weren't touched, and had their paperwork faked--to the extent I would tell potential customers which "shop's" stickers to look for if they were the risk taking type.)
POS federalization when it first came over? You wouldn't believe how hacked some of the poor things were. (Best ones were those that weren't touched, and had their paperwork faked--to the extent I would tell potential customers which "shop's" stickers to look for if they were the risk taking type.)
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06-12-2014, 12:26 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
Sure, but if you're trying to maximize your profit margin and move units through the shop, how are you going to proceed? (There's this common misconception that anyone who touches a 911 is as pure as the driven snow. The gray market days were bad news, especially with the 7 year old cars coming in.)
So, what's to screw up? Body-wise, the door beams and impact dampers behind the bumpers. Crap like installing used US headlights and lenses. Bad A/C installs, because it was a must-have on the So Cal/AZ cars. Engine-wise, slapping a POS cat on. And here's where I'm having a moment--were ROW equipped with O2 sensors? If so, then they usually used a piggyback computer that didn't work well. (If not, I'm just confusing it with the CIS cars that did require it on conversion.) Interiors delivered with cloth seats, and having crap leather installed--though that's not a federalization thing.
So, what's to screw up? Body-wise, the door beams and impact dampers behind the bumpers. Crap like installing used US headlights and lenses. Bad A/C installs, because it was a must-have on the So Cal/AZ cars. Engine-wise, slapping a POS cat on. And here's where I'm having a moment--were ROW equipped with O2 sensors? If so, then they usually used a piggyback computer that didn't work well. (If not, I'm just confusing it with the CIS cars that did require it on conversion.) Interiors delivered with cloth seats, and having crap leather installed--though that's not a federalization thing.
06-12-2014, 02:39 AM
#9
Instructor
Euros have a O2 sensor but had not cat. Most got a cat afterwards, typically that restrictive Porsche OEM cat. But that can be changed out today against a better flowing metal type cat converter. Works with the original Motronic.
But I am looking at this from a different perspective. Over here, much harder to get a RoW car than a re-imported US spec car these days. Funny but true. Not hard to convert them to get them legally on the road, but you will be at 217HP and no cheap way of changing this. I was lucky enough to get a German car. So I don't know anything about the US pitfalls.
But I am looking at this from a different perspective. Over here, much harder to get a RoW car than a re-imported US spec car these days. Funny but true. Not hard to convert them to get them legally on the road, but you will be at 217HP and no cheap way of changing this. I was lucky enough to get a German car. So I don't know anything about the US pitfalls.
06-12-2014, 12:45 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Euros have a O2 sensor but had not cat. Most got a cat afterwards, typically that restrictive Porsche OEM cat. But that can be changed out today against a better flowing metal type cat converter. Works with the original Motronic.
But I am looking at this from a different perspective. Over here, much harder to get a RoW car than a re-imported US spec car these days. Funny but true. Not hard to convert them to get them legally on the road, but you will be at 217HP and no cheap way of changing this. I was lucky enough to get a German car. So I don't know anything about the US pitfalls.
But I am looking at this from a different perspective. Over here, much harder to get a RoW car than a re-imported US spec car these days. Funny but true. Not hard to convert them to get them legally on the road, but you will be at 217HP and no cheap way of changing this. I was lucky enough to get a German car. So I don't know anything about the US pitfalls.
Never found any difference between all the engines, in practical terms. Granted, we didn't have onboard data in the '80s and '90s, but even at Willow Springs there was maybe 3 mph difference in trap speed between a stock 3.0 with a good exhaust and any 3.2. Which turned into about maybe pulling even with a similar car into T1 @ 120-22.
06-12-2014, 06:39 PM
#12
POS federalization when it first came over? You wouldn't believe how hacked some of the poor things were. (Best ones were those that weren't touched, and had their paperwork faked--to the extent I would tell potential customers which "shop's" stickers to look for if they were the risk taking type.)
the best to get are the ones that were brought in w/ an EPA waiver these should have the EPA release forms w/ the ownership docs, no engine work needed, DoT was mandatory and should have it's own release form and that's where short cuts were often taken, some ok some not so much, that's where a documented history separates the wheat from the chaff .
When mine was done one good short cut was to leave the oe Euro headlights in, one not so good was leaving oe Euro windshield in, one that looked to be an issue at first was a warning light on the dash that was missing, turned out to be a non issue after a little study. The first US registration was also a process, the car could not use the factory issued serial # because of the importation method, so the state made up and assigned it' own #, I occasionally get questions from the insurance company about it.
06-12-2014, 08:22 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
I guess you just aren't observant enough, the only place in the US where trans temps will be an issue is track use for 45 min or more runs, the typical 20-30min run won't heat them enough to matter and street use is a joke wrt trans temps. Of course a real cooler is better but I always say never let a perfect plan get in the way of a merely good one
Depended on the shop and section of the law it was brought over under.
the best to get are the ones that were brought in w/ an EPA waiver these should have the EPA release forms w/ the ownership docs, no engine work needed, DoT was mandatory and should have it's own release form and that's where short cuts were often taken, some ok some not so much, that's where a documented history separates the wheat from the chaff .
When mine was done one good short cut was to leave the oe Euro headlights in, one not so good was leaving oe Euro windshield in, one that looked to be an issue at first was a warning light on the dash that was missing, turned out to be a non issue after a little study. The first US registration was also a process, the car could not use the factory issued serial # because of the importation method, so the state made up and assigned it' own #, I occasionally get questions from the insurance company about it.
Depended on the shop and section of the law it was brought over under.
the best to get are the ones that were brought in w/ an EPA waiver these should have the EPA release forms w/ the ownership docs, no engine work needed, DoT was mandatory and should have it's own release form and that's where short cuts were often taken, some ok some not so much, that's where a documented history separates the wheat from the chaff .
When mine was done one good short cut was to leave the oe Euro headlights in, one not so good was leaving oe Euro windshield in, one that looked to be an issue at first was a warning light on the dash that was missing, turned out to be a non issue after a little study. The first US registration was also a process, the car could not use the factory issued serial # because of the importation method, so the state made up and assigned it' own #, I occasionally get questions from the insurance company about it.
Tell me when you lived in CA, and had to deal with BAR? There were no emissions waivers here. That's what did in most of the 930s, since the catalytic converter didn't exist yet prior to the US reintroduction of the car in '86. (But that's taking it off topic re: the 3.2s. Few I saw had OE cats; the "standard" was to cut in an aftermarket unit.)
06-12-2014, 08:57 PM
#14
Trans temp on a 901 or 915 (depending on engine torque, of course) were definitely of concern at Willow or Riverside during the summer, and even in Phoenix when we'd be able to test on summer evenings with ambient at ~110F on our short tracks.
Tell me when you lived in CA, and had to deal with BAR? There were no emissions waivers here. That's what did in most of the 930s, since the catalytic converter didn't exist yet prior to the US reintroduction of the car in '86. (But that's taking it off topic re: the 3.2s. Few I saw had OE cats; the "standard" was to cut in an aftermarket unit.)
Tell me when you lived in CA, and had to deal with BAR? There were no emissions waivers here. That's what did in most of the 930s, since the catalytic converter didn't exist yet prior to the US reintroduction of the car in '86. (But that's taking it off topic re: the 3.2s. Few I saw had OE cats; the "standard" was to cut in an aftermarket unit.)
06-12-2014, 09:31 PM
#15
Instructor
I love my ROW. No modifications made during the importation process that I've discovered. It was brought over in 1985, I've got the EPA waiver and all ownership docs back to Germany.
I speculate that a good ROW car should end up being more valuable/collectable (and obviously cooler) than a US spec in the long run.
I speculate that a good ROW car should end up being more valuable/collectable (and obviously cooler) than a US spec in the long run.