thewriter

I owned 911’s from 1990 to 1999, when a truck turned in front of my red RS America and totaled it. My first 911 was an ’87 with whale tail spoiler, red with 8,787 miles, bought in 1990.

In 2003, I bought a 2001 911 with 8,000 miles. I could not warm up to this car. I did not like the steering compared to my earlier 911’s. I did not like the feel of the car, more like a luxury cruiser. The suspension seemed to float. The front end seemed to bounce and hunt. The carbon fiber squeaked. I felt like I was driving a “gentleman Jim” car, not a Porsche. It gave me that “icky” feeling of being over dressed in a suit and tie.

Then, last month I bought a black on black 1991 911 Turbo. I love this car. My old 911 Porsche fever is back.

Why can’t Porsche make a new 911 with the sporty feel of the 964? I realize the new Porsches have much more horsepower. I like the technology of the new PDK transmission. Water-cooled is not a deal-changer. Styling and looks and size are.

Going into a Porsche new car dealership today is a sobering experience for me. Prices are 150K on “Gentleman Jim” cars.

I keep perusing pictures and ads trying to find a 2007 and up model with “the look” to buy for a driver. I would like to test drive a 911 with a PDK transmission, 2009 and up.

Does anybody else have this same feeling as I do about 911s? Am I forced to drive a 911 from 1994 and back to get what I want? I made the mistake of buying that 2001. I don’t want to make that mistake again and put on a suit and tie when I want to wear a sports shirt.

Steam Driver

I think the market demographics have changed. IMHO (I'm sure I'll get some flak for this) the older cars were aimed at drivers; the newer cars are aimed at poseurs, simple as that. The new cars are for the electronic gimmick generation.

Rick-A-Shay

No surprise here. Technology and performance have driven the cost of Porsches "thru the roof"! Those who can afford them are more into image and prestige of ownership. Placement of cup holders and ease of driving have overtaken the thrill of driver engagement. Of course, track enthusiasts relish the latest models for the cars' ability to achieve faster laps at the track, even at the cost of now deleted manual transmissions. Of course, a Cayman or Boxster can still be claimed affordable but still, never the same as earlier air cooled 911s that we all love so well.

Reiver

I'm not sure poseurs is the correct description.
The total driving experience has changed in the last 10 or so years (maybe further back).
Skills that once emanated from the driver now exist within the machine...the computers sense input, and adjust output in the engine, suspension, drive train etc......the driver 'steers' (with assistance) brakes (with assistance) and accelerates (with assistance). He/she can still get in trouble but only if they are total idiots (no assistance needed).
In our 30 odd year old cars all of the 'assistance' emanates from our mechanical set up and eventual driver input. The vehicle makes no effort whatsoever to correct your mistakes.
A huge leap in development in just a few short years....just wait another 10.

KoB

I don't normally read this forum, but the title of this thread caught me as I was looking at the main forum page. I own a 996 ... and you'll be surprised, but I sort of agree with you.

My first sports car was a Fiat 850 with a 903 Abarth engine, and I've had many cars since. Some sporty, others not so much. But I think my tastes and expectations have changed over the years ... to use a motorcycle analogy, in my 20's a Yamaha RD350 made perfect sense. Today I have a Harley V-Rod (actually, a VRSCR Street Rod).

Someone who rides a RD350 would consider the V-Rod a poseur's bike, but that's not it, exactly. It's more of a day touring bike -- as opposed to the RD350, which was pure sport. And I think that's what happened between the 964 and the 996; Porsche changed the focus of the product. For good? Who knows, although they certainly sold a lot of 996's, which I'm sure was the object of the exercise.

I think Porsche changed direction somewhere in the 1990's. I never got the sense -- even when I owned a 944 in the late 1980's -- that the company designed and manufactured to a price point quite the way that they did with the 996. And make no mistake, the 944 was definitely designed and manufactured to a price point. And maybe my memory is hazy about design and build quality, even though that car was my daily driver for five years.

I think some of the 996 "suit and tie" character comes from a deliberate change of focus -- but I also think some of what you felt in that 996 was lower grade materials than you were accustomed to and a product designed for lower cost of manufacturing. I've read that they did this out of necessity, that the company was in bad financial straits. I've read that the 996 "saved" Porsche, financially speaking. I really don't know. But I believe my 944 was better manufactured -- at least it felt more solidly constructed -- than my 996.

Clearly, there are some hard questions here. If Porsche had built a liquid cooled car as close as possible to the spirit of the 964 -- without some of the design compromises of the 996 -- would it have been successful in the marketplace? Would it have been too expensive? Not what the broader market wanted or desired? Honestly, I don't know. But I really believe that Porsche made some conscious decisions when they designed the 996, and the car they brought to market was the car they thought the market wanted.

I'll say this ... 30-odd years ago I got the opportunity to drive a 930 Turbo. I still remember it. It was exhilarating and terrifying all at the same time, and took all the concentration I had (I was 25 years old). I like my 996, and I enjoy driving it. In most objective measurements, it's probably a better car than that 930. More powerful? I think so. Faster? Probably. Easier to drive? You bet. Fun? Absolutely. Memorable? Nope.

On the other hand, I dont think I'd trust my 57-year-old self behind the wheel of that 930. I remember talking to a service manager back then, who quietly told me how many 930's he had seen wrecked. That's the other side of the coin regarding "driver engagement," and I've always wondered if Porsche could've introduced that car in the litigious 21st Century as easily as they did in the late 1970's. Back in the day, if you spun the car and wrapped it around a tree it was your own damn fault. Nowadays, it was obviously a defective product.

So I don't know if there are any answers here, other than 1) my 996 is different from the sports cars (and sport bikes) of my youth, and 2) for me, that's OK, since my preferences have changed.

Which is why I started this by saying that I think we kind of agree ... if I still wanted that 930, I'd probably have tried to buy one. But the 996, for all its faults and flaws, is pretty close to what I'm looking for these days. Does that make me a poseur? Beats me. I prefer to think of it as having a different set of priorities.

Of the current cars, I suspect the Cayman is closer to what you want than a modern 911 will ever be. But it may be that if you want the 964 experience, you'll need to buy a 964.

blake

Great thread, and you guys bring up some great points...

I think the "old" 911 ended with the 993, and the "new" 911 started with the 996. Let me say bluntly, I am not a fan of the "new" 911 (with one exception) - and I currently own two of them. My first experience with Porsche was getting behind the wheel of a real beater 1979 911 SC Targa back in the early '90s. It was old, slow, only running on 5 cyclinders, cosmetically challanged - but oh boy was it fun to drive on a New England road! And so visceral! I bought it for peanuts, and never looked back. I'd describe the older 911s as finicky & difficult to drive well - but worth the effort. Old Porsches would really push you to learn how to tame the beast, otherwise you would end up in a tree... The stockbroker + 930 stories of the 80s were and still are... legitimate.

The 996+ cars went more "GT" (plush, softer, compliant) and certainly were fixated on cost constraints and profits. More drive by wire, they just simply were less fun... However, Porsche didn't fully abandon the purist with the advent of the 996 as they created the GT3 line to be a "throw back" 911 that balanced the feel of old with the power and electronics of today. Drive any of the GT3s - they simply feel different, and are more in line with the 911s that got us hooked on the brand...

Each version of the GT3 has included more electronics...more drive by wire. But it still maintained an expensive, hand-build race-proven engine that could be not be had in a base 911 - the "Mezger" GT1-derived dry sump inline 6. However, with the advent of the now pending 991 GT3 - the engine is gone and the GT3s will be built with a modified engine from the core 911 engine... It will also come with 4-wheel steering, and NO MANUAL. The purists are not happy (myself included).

The thing is... there has always been a group of Porsche enthusiasts that want a 911 for the track, but don't exactly want a pure race car (ala GT3 CUP). There is something special about taking a street car on the track and just tearing it up! ALL 911s from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s were able to do that... It was what PORSCHE was all about. With the advent of the 964 RS, the "gentleman DEer" could buy a track-specific toy, yet still take his wife to opera. Very cool. The GT3 series was viewed in the same way... And let me tell you - the GT3s on the track are pure bliss. They are tanks, and feel like the perfect mix of "old" 911 visceral feel with some new technologies.

So why are the purist GT3 guys so angry? Because Porsche has changed their model AGAIN, and made the now-revered GT3 more "GT". No longer is heel-n-toe required to drive fast on the race track, or the potential for a possible "money" shift... It's just point and shoot - kind of like a shifter go kart. Did I mention 4-wheel steering???

Add to it the people that usually frequent the GT3 web boards... The 996 & 997 GT3 web boards (since 2004) have been dominated by the track crowd.... but the 991 GT3 web board has more non-track people. The whole POINT of the GT3 was to track it. Ah yes - the new 991 GT# will cater to a WIDER AUDIENCE! How wonderful for sales!!!!

When the 996 came out, I felt that Porsche had SOLD OUT. But then I discovered (with Porsches importation of the 996.2 GT3 to the US) that they still had the magic. But with the advent of the 991GT3, I feel like Porsche has now SOLD OUT the GT3 fan base. Where is our raw car in the Porsche line up? Must I seriously contemplate a new Stingray Corvette as a track toy (as GM seems eager to win over this fan base)?

In today's world - I think there are two PERFECT 911s. The "new 911" of the 996/997 GT3 variant that is truthfully the ultimate track weapon (fast, tough to drive, reliable, old-world feel), and the "old" 911 of the 964 or earlier variant that is the PERFECT fun-run street car (fast, tough to drive, reliable, and what a 911 is all about)...

I'll take two please...

My $.02,
-B

911Dave

In 2007, I ordered and bought a new Carrera S. This was after enjoying my first 911, an '86 coupe, for 4 years. The 997 was a supremely capable car, but I sold it after 2 years because it wasn't even close to as much fun to drive as the '86, which I kept. They are completely different experiences. If it's the RS America experience you're after, don't go looking for it in any water cooled 911. You will not find it there.

CVDH

There is something sublime about driving an aircooled 911 that is lost on the newer cars. Mine has a stripped down interior, RS America door panels, A/C delete, no sound deadening, and a straight-piped exhaust. Going anywhere or doing anything in that car becomes an event. At times, I am a bit embarassed that the interior of my car is unfinished...but I have never heard a complaint from any of my passengers. To them it is an adventure, a journey into another world. We're driving a race car on the street. It feels like we're getting away with murder.

My 911 is tough to drive. It is brutish, angry, tough, punishing, unforgiving, and generally incorrigible. And it is supremely rewarding to drive and own.
Getting into a 996, 997, or 991 is still special, of course. Just like my car, it looks and feels like a superior automobile. It just feels "better." Both cars are capable of taking you wherever you want to go very quickly. But the older cans can take you somewhere emotionally that cannot be reached by the newer cars.

jackb911

I'm an air cooled Porsche guy from WAY back (41 years). I also briefly owned a 996, I hated it and sold it after 3 months. I went back to the air cooled ones - two RS Americas, a 993 and a pair of G50 Carreras. My brother and I did a 7 month backdate project on the '87 G50 car...no A/C, no radio, no center console, lightweight Recaros, backdated heater and so on. It was about as raw as you'd want on the street. And it was serious fun, I thought I'd be keeping this one forever...



Then, to make a very long story short, a few months ago a long-time Porsche friend and I traded Porsches, my RS backdate for his pristine, never tracked 2007 GT3.

The GT3 and a newer 996/997Carrera are completely different animals. There is nothing "soft" or "cushy" about this car unlike a regular 997 Carrera. It has more power, speed and cornering potential than can be safely explored on public roads which is why GT3's are so popular with the rich guys who track them. However, I'm old, not rich and I don't track anymore but I still love having a quick, excellent handling street Porsche that is engaging to drive.

So...there IS an option to a good air-cooled 911. The 2007-8 non-RS versions are excellent value for money and they can be had for less than half of what a zero option 991 GT3 will cost. And you get the Mezger engine and a manual transmission which are huge plusses in my book.

Drive one if you have the opportunity. You might like it.

thewriter

What do you mean by a non-RS 2007-08? Just a base 911? You bought a GT3.

theiceman

he got a 911 gt3, not the 911 gt3-rs, which is a lighter nimbler version of the gt3. hard to believe you could do that huh ..

f4 plt

Good thread and I agree with most of the comments. I drove a 991 on the track several months ago and while quick, it is a large vehicle and the electric steering and suspension provided no feedback whatsoever, it was like driving a video game.

At the other extreme is my '83 Sc which has been purposely set up for the track and is raw bare bones Porsche performance. Somewhere in between is my 997.2 which is my daily driver but somewhat modified. Gt3 suspension parts have far improved the "feel" of the car while still providing a comfortable ride. The PDK is nothing short of fantastic and the sport bucket seats supportive and comfortable.

Now there is one modern Porsche that brings back the "old school" of pure fun and that is the 2011-2012 limited production Boxster Spyder. Modern shades of the 356 Speedster that is "pure fun" right out of the box.

I would certainly agree with the comment that times have changed and so has the market ... and the Porsche market continues to change away from the sports car as we grew up knowing it to the GT " all the bells and whistles"

"look what I'm driving" status car. Too bad but times are a changing and I'm out of date

thewriter

I think weight is the parameter of most importance comparing older Porsche 911s to newer Porsche 911s. Size is second and also very important because by design sports cars are smallish cars. Build them too big and too heavy and the sports car starts to disappear within that design. Third in importance is handling ability. Fourth is horsepower. When did Porsche hit the sweet spot of weight and size, handling and horsepower, in the life cycle of the 911? With a 0-60 MPH ET of under 3 seconds, where does Porsche go with their 911? Has Porsche put horsepower as their #1 most important factor with each succeeding new 911, denigrating what the 911's mission was for decades? As size and weight increase and horsepower moves into 500, 600 and up, are we not creating more of a drag car at the expense of a sports car? I believe the flagship of the Porsche lineup, as a sports car, should remain the division's lightest car. Weight and size and should not take a secondary role to horsepower.

jackb911

You can thank our politicians for legislating more weight and complexity into our vehicles. This started back in 1968. Bumper laws, side impact beams, collapsible steering columns, multiple airbags, ABS braking systems, catalytic converters plus the additional electronics needed to monitor a myriad of systems added a lot of weight.

That's part of the appeal of older cars in general, Porsches in particular. If you want something lightweight and super nimble, a pre-1990 911 is what you want but the later versions of those aren't particularly svelte.

Porsche moved significantly upmarket price-wise around the time the 911SC was introduced in 1978. The demographic has shifted to a far different type of buyer than it was before then. Even before then I recall the outcry from the enthusiasts in 1973 when a typical 911S had a sticker price that exceeded $10,000. These days the "typical Porsche buyer" is looking at Cayennes and Panameras.

So, why isn't there a lightweight, enthusiast-oriented 911 any more? Porsche offers "us" a 991 GT3 that is heavier and larger than the 997 version, without the proven Mezger engine (that continues to be utilized in the 991 GT3 RSR race cars!) and without offering a manual transmission. At a price that only a very wealthy customer can afford. In 1993 Porsche offered a decontented 964 for $10K less than a Carrera 2, called the RS America. It was somewhat lighter, had no power steering or rear seats and while most enthusiasts consider it more of a stripper than a real RS (compared to the Euro RS), it was still a great driver at a reasonable price point. The problem was, they only sold 701 of them over a two year period. I imagine that confirmed to Porsche, who is in business to make a profit, that the "enthusiast market" in the USA isn't going to make them enough money to justify a lightweight niche car. Interestingly, a clean low mileage RS America will bring over $10k MORE on the used market than a comparable C2.

Having owned a bunch of 911's over the past four decades, my experience is that the sweet spot was the 1972-73 911E and 911S. They are light, very quick (much more so than a 911T) and IMO are the last of the no-nonsense pur sang Porsche sports cars. The '73 Carrera RS is the "nirvana" 911 for collectors for good reason and it is unfortunate that they were never certified for sale in the USA when they were new. It's also sad that most of them are museum pieces or garage queens because the collector market has driven their prices into the stratosphere...

thewriter

I enjoyed reading your response, especially about the 911s through the years and prices.

I like multiple airbags. One saved my life in 1999 in my RS America, which I bought over the standard 911 for the car's lighter weight, plus good looks of the rear spoiler. Technology in upcoming BMW's and Porsches is using new materials to compensate for the extra weight of batteries with high MPG and very fast, if not super car, 0-60 times. I like the idea of a 2900 pound 911 getting high MPG, using Porsche 918 and BMW i8 weight-saving measures and technology, but having the rear engine concept. I wonder how bad my wreck would have been with an engine up front splashing back into my lap. I believe part of Dr. Porsche's reasoning for installing the engine behind the rear axle was safety. I also wonder how bad my wreck would have been if I had been driving a mid-engine sports car such as a Boxster or Cayman. I believe the engine would have continued forward as I crashed into the truck that illegally turned in front of me. I wasn't speeding. I go fast at club events, not on the street where I endanger other people. This is not cool.

I might spend 80 or 100 grand for a new car, but 150, 200 and up I do not want to spend for a depreciating asset. I don't want a Cayman - no interest, same for Boxster, just not attractive to a 911 person who likes rear engine design. When I look at a new Porsche 911 at $150K I think to myself, "Game over."