Originally Posted by 86NOH20

Hi all,

Autozone sells a kit to recharge A/C. Will that work
on an 86' Carrera? Mine is stock and has not been charged
for years. Last time I had it done, it worked great for about 1 year.

thanks

Originally Posted by griffiths

The retail 'kits' really don't have everything you need to do the job
properly.

The equipment you need is a good ac vacuum pump and service gauges with hoses. If don't have them and you wish to do the job yourself and you are thinking of buying them, not worth it. If you borrow equipment you need to have the knowledge on the procedure, you can find some of that here in the forum.

Converting from R12 to R134a you need a new drier, R134a charge port adapters, Ester oil and o-ring set.


Add a binary pressure switch to that list. Even with R-12 the singular unique design of "our" A/C systems makes it inordinately subject to the system going OVER-PRESSURE. Pressures well beyond the design specification for many of the system components, the hoses especially, seemingly.

These over-pressure events may result from refrigerant over-charging, compressor over-run, or even lack of sufficient refrigerant condensor cooling capacity, low, poor condensor airflow.

Many system designs of this era included a "vent-to-atmosphere" high pressure relief valve should the system pressure rise above 350-450PSI. My '92 Ford Aerostar uses an HPRV mounted on the back of the A/C compressor.

Since R-134a operates at even higher pressures vs R-12, this poster's company AND the EPA recommend the binary pressure switch be added when converting to R-134a.

There are a few Porsche related vendors whom sell turn key parts kits,
for example:

R134a Kit for a 911
http://www.griffiths.com/shop/index....products_id=94

However, one issue with the 911 is it does not have a low and high cut off switch to help protect the system. One way to resolve that is to get a new compressor to deck lid hose with the switch incorporated in it (the stock hose is old and typically fails by now anyway), here is one solution:
http://www.griffiths.com/shop/index....roducts_id=145

And if you want to take it up a notch, you got about 40 feet of non barrier hose, if you replace all the hoses you would avoid the scenario of having to recharge the system every year or more.

BREAKING NEWS...!

The EPA has now gone on record stating that this "non-barrier" hose issue is NOTHING but a RED HERRING. Apparently the short term loss, ~2 years, of R-12 is/was due to the lack of an HPRV, High Pressure Relief Valve, in the Porsche systems of this era.

But granted, the factory inclusion of an HPRV might well have accelerated the loss of refrigerant.

Example:

HOT TX day, A/C in FULL use, Shut the engine down, HOT engine, the engine lid condensor, quite possibly already at MAXIMUM pressure for NORMAL A/C operation, becomes SUPER-HEATED due to the now rising convection (+Radient) HEAT, from that HOT engine and HOT exhaust stack/catalyst/muffler. System pressures go into ORBIT, something has to give..!!

System O-ring seals..?

Read ...
The Mr. Ice Project

Originally Posted by griffiths

Sorry fellow Renn Members. It appears we have been invaded once again by the Vague and Narcissistic Wwest again.

Amusingly Wwest seems to want to post in the majority of AC related threads, and

especially where he see's anything posted by yours truly or anywhere there is a mention of Kuehl or Griffiths.


So, readers, how that for turning LOGIC on its HEAD...???

Of course I seek out posts with Kuehl's "signature" or regarding Kuehl "products". But thinks, may be a worthy search.

He has a tendency to try to disavow any positive statements about the Kuehl trade name and products, yet he has never purchased, installed or used any of them, never mind a competitors upgrades.

Just TRY..???

I think I've been pretty damn successful desparaging modern day use of Kuehl's mostly OBSOLETE, OUT-DATED products, some even simple SNAKE-OIL, more marketing "dollars" vs product value.

In most cases he will attempt to take a position in the opposite side of the ring regardless of logic.

His (OUR) most recent rants and objections, a well as comments to them may be found here:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ml#post7403857

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...e-c-gurus.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...in-freely.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...w-indiana.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...indiana-2.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...onversion.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...c-install.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...911-912-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...c-experts.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...l-coolers.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-c-heater.html

and it goes on and on and on and on lol.

Originally Posted by griffiths

Wasted bandwidth and storage space Wwest.

86NOH20... feel free to contact is if you got a question
and need a straight answer.
sales@griffiths.com

Originally Posted by Rick-A-Shay

Most try to recharge an OE A/C system, only to find that the system does not hold a charge for any length of time.

According to the EPA and Kuehl the issue of not holding a charge can be overcome, easily overcome, at the same time you convert to R-134a.

The EPA is now saying the requirement to upgrade to "barrier" type hoses when retrofitting an old R-12 system was misguided. The EPA now says the lubricating oil used with R-134a soaks into the old "non-barrier" hose and thereby blocks leakage that was though to arise due to the smaller molecular structure of R-134a.

For his part, Kuehl tells us, correctly so, that the extraordinary refrigerant pressures that might arise with the use of R-134a can be overcome by using the binary pressure switch to abate, alleviate, the issue of those extraordinarily high system pressures climbing beyond any of the system component design parameters.

The issue is the OE hoses are porous and the refrigerant bleeds right out thru the wall of the hose.

Again, not according to the latest findings by the EPA.

The solution is to get a kit from Griffiths, or similar, which includes new hoses. Once you have installed the kit, it is best to have a professional test and recharge the system with the new "approved" refrigerant. A dye should be introduced into the system to see if there are any leaks at the compressor. Also, lubricant is needed to take care of the compressor's internal parts. This is not an afternoon job as the hoses run to the front of your car and back again. I had this done on my '88 in CA and it still works rather well after a year and a half. Not cheap but well worth the effort. Otherwise, roll down the windows and drive fast..........

Originally Posted by griffiths

Wasted bandwidth and storage space Wwest.

86NOH20... feel free to contact is if you got a question
and need a straight answer.
sales@griffiths.com

Originally Posted by griffiths

Not a smart idea.

Why is it NOT?

You have to pull the correct vacuum before you charge the system.

Should, maybe, not "you have to"


Well if you exclude the legal aspects, by your instructions so far (should a DIY really believe your advice),

Not offering advice, just asking "what if" questions.

let's see: on the top of my head what most naive people would experience would be the typical frozen fingers, face, etc,

I'd be MIGHTILY surprised if anyone actually tried this, let alone some one so naive.

if they failed to recover the remaining refrigerant,

Leave us hanging...?

if there was an open flame in the area you just relived Auschwitz,

Damn, haven't been able to bum a cigarette for ages, does NOBODY smoke any more?

otherwise you just pissed off anyone whom accepts the Montreal Protocol.

Would that be the illegal issue I asked to bypass..?

Wwest, do you know a good dermatologist

Now that sounds like the voice of experience. But to be fair over the years I have been exposed to open refrigerant more times than I would like.

and a few good lawyers? Have you put your assets in a trust?

Why? You think someone might consider these questions as actual DIY advice..that would take an IDIOT, truly.

You just created an azeotrope, and if some naive repair shop does not have a refrigerant identification system he's gonna be pissed off when he contaminates his R134a recovering machine.

. Depends if it's PAG or Ester. My preference is for Ester however you missed the key issue as to how much oil is required in the system. Now you are setting up the DIY for a possible locked up compressor down the road.

You ARE taking this seriously as DIY advice. Damn, after all I said to be sure that wouldn't happen.

Well, we thought you were having another Senior Moment there in forgetting to properly evacuate the system.

Actually, as soon as the system's pressure is equal to the ambient pressure you could have a heck of lot of moisture in there,

How could that be? Once the R-12 has bled off to the level of the local atmospheric pressure the remaining R-12 will BLOCK the entry of any external atmosphere, Rh included.

never mind the moisture that was in there before you started.

The presumption would be, IS, that the system was fully operational with whatever level of moisture was already "in there".

Hey, Wwest. Can you use a spell check before you post? I'm OK with grammar so long as the spell checker corrects it. Thanks.