300+hp out of a 3.2?
07-13-2002, 04:35 AM
#46
Burning Brakes
On the 80's Carrera's it just doesn't seem cost effective to put a bunch of money into performance mods. It would take a lot of doing just to match the overall performance of a 930. It's generally cheaper to spend the extra $10k or so for the 930, at which point you've got bags of potential for further improvements. That $10k buys a lot more than a big motor. You also get much nicer brakes and suspension.
07-14-2002, 09:15 AM
#49
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[quote]Originally posted by Roamer:
<strong>Dana, having a SCCA competition license and 8 years of racing experience, I think I am a fair tradesman. However, being a fair tradesman I am aware of my car's limitations. --
huge hp difference between his 405 and my ~220. My goal is to narrow that gap and let the natural advantages of the 911 shine through.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am well aware your probably a good tradesman who knows his tools, I just thought I would throw it in to give a different light to the situation.
I personally have always been comfortable about idiots trying to drag me off at the lights, and winning.
In a race situation I would be a bit more pissed off though!
Have you thought about selling your car, saving the money that you would have put into an engine swap and buying a newer 911 Turbo? (mid 90's?)
I'm not sure about pricing differences, or whether you love your car and couldn't bare to see it go?
<strong>Dana, having a SCCA competition license and 8 years of racing experience, I think I am a fair tradesman. However, being a fair tradesman I am aware of my car's limitations. --
huge hp difference between his 405 and my ~220. My goal is to narrow that gap and let the natural advantages of the 911 shine through.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am well aware your probably a good tradesman who knows his tools, I just thought I would throw it in to give a different light to the situation.
I personally have always been comfortable about idiots trying to drag me off at the lights, and winning.
In a race situation I would be a bit more pissed off though!
Have you thought about selling your car, saving the money that you would have put into an engine swap and buying a newer 911 Turbo? (mid 90's?)
I'm not sure about pricing differences, or whether you love your car and couldn't bare to see it go?
07-14-2002, 01:02 PM
#50
Instructor
Thread Starter
In response . . .
Ed, you and I are of the same feeling. I am happy with the weight advantage that I already have and want to exploit it futher with a dose of hp. As my car and I begin our courtship I am learning the speed that slipping her through a corner brings and while at first, I did not care for the understeer I am beginning to learn how to exploit it. Further, with suspension and tire upgrades I should be able to make the car a little more neutral and raise the levels of cornering at the same time, making the car even faster through the corners. With the addition of hp I will also be faster down the straight so my speed out of the corners could be exploited in stead of lost in the 'drag race' part of road racing.
Dana, I hope you did not take my comments as a personal attack, none were intended, I was just trying to reinforce that I am not a yahoo who does not understand the complex dynamics inherent in driving a 911 quickly. I would also have to agree that most 911 drivers are better by necessity because just mashing the go fast pedal and sawing the wheel around will end you in a ditch.
Before purchasing my 911 I had heard of the 'scary' handling of the 911s and thought that it probably was overblown. To my surprise it was. To me the trick in a 911 is to keep the weight to the rear as much as possible because that's where the car wants it. When you get on the brakes you have to control the rear end with the steering wheel. After you have turned in, gradually get of the brakes to keep everything in line and then increase the throttle and deal with the understeer. By apexing a little early you will necessarily come out a little shy of the track edge exit point but will get there by 'pushing' the front out there. The beauty of this is that you will now be moving faster exiting the corner as a result. Add the braking capability of the 911 and your lower entrance speeds no longer become such a disadvantage. What I have enjoyed most about the car is the incredible 'stick' that the 911 has in the rear, you give it gas, get the weight back and it just won't let go (to a point of course).
Tim, how the hell did you get that much hp out of the 3.4? Could you drive that thing on the street, it sounds like it would be awfully peaky?
As for those who mention just purchasing another car it really does not make sense. Sure it would be easier just to purchase a 930 but for the more than $15k price difference between my car and a stock 930 it is tought to justify. Add in the lower weight and drag and it starts to become a push. Plus, I have driven many a turbo charged car and while a blast to drive, I do not car for the peaky power. I much prefer the linear delivery of twin turbo or strong na motors. Just a preference. I have done some pricing based upon the suggestions on this board and I could probably do the motor upgrade for around $6-7k (taking into account the sale of my very strong 3.2) and suspension and brake mods for another $4-5k. This puts me at a $12k price tag and in a car that is very reliable and quicker in every day driving than a stock 930. Since I don't intend on selling my 911, the resale issue is of no concern. Yes the 930 is a better platform to start with, but the base price difference will always be there.
Thanks to all, this has been a great thread, and keep it coming!
Marc
Ed, you and I are of the same feeling. I am happy with the weight advantage that I already have and want to exploit it futher with a dose of hp. As my car and I begin our courtship I am learning the speed that slipping her through a corner brings and while at first, I did not care for the understeer I am beginning to learn how to exploit it. Further, with suspension and tire upgrades I should be able to make the car a little more neutral and raise the levels of cornering at the same time, making the car even faster through the corners. With the addition of hp I will also be faster down the straight so my speed out of the corners could be exploited in stead of lost in the 'drag race' part of road racing.
Dana, I hope you did not take my comments as a personal attack, none were intended, I was just trying to reinforce that I am not a yahoo who does not understand the complex dynamics inherent in driving a 911 quickly. I would also have to agree that most 911 drivers are better by necessity because just mashing the go fast pedal and sawing the wheel around will end you in a ditch.
Before purchasing my 911 I had heard of the 'scary' handling of the 911s and thought that it probably was overblown. To my surprise it was. To me the trick in a 911 is to keep the weight to the rear as much as possible because that's where the car wants it. When you get on the brakes you have to control the rear end with the steering wheel. After you have turned in, gradually get of the brakes to keep everything in line and then increase the throttle and deal with the understeer. By apexing a little early you will necessarily come out a little shy of the track edge exit point but will get there by 'pushing' the front out there. The beauty of this is that you will now be moving faster exiting the corner as a result. Add the braking capability of the 911 and your lower entrance speeds no longer become such a disadvantage. What I have enjoyed most about the car is the incredible 'stick' that the 911 has in the rear, you give it gas, get the weight back and it just won't let go (to a point of course).
Tim, how the hell did you get that much hp out of the 3.4? Could you drive that thing on the street, it sounds like it would be awfully peaky?
As for those who mention just purchasing another car it really does not make sense. Sure it would be easier just to purchase a 930 but for the more than $15k price difference between my car and a stock 930 it is tought to justify. Add in the lower weight and drag and it starts to become a push. Plus, I have driven many a turbo charged car and while a blast to drive, I do not car for the peaky power. I much prefer the linear delivery of twin turbo or strong na motors. Just a preference. I have done some pricing based upon the suggestions on this board and I could probably do the motor upgrade for around $6-7k (taking into account the sale of my very strong 3.2) and suspension and brake mods for another $4-5k. This puts me at a $12k price tag and in a car that is very reliable and quicker in every day driving than a stock 930. Since I don't intend on selling my 911, the resale issue is of no concern. Yes the 930 is a better platform to start with, but the base price difference will always be there.
Thanks to all, this has been a great thread, and keep it coming!
Marc
07-15-2002, 09:56 AM
#51
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[quote]Originally posted by Roamer:
<strong>In response . . .
Dana, I hope you did not take my comments as a personal attack, none were intended, I was just trying to reinforce that I am not a yahoo who does not understand the complex dynamics inherent in driving a 911 quickly. I would also have to agree that most 911 drivers are better by necessity because just mashing the go fast pedal and sawing the wheel around will end you in a ditch.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at all! You never really know from what angle a person is coming from till you reply to their thread.
I have seen too many people simply scream more horse power because they feel it would get them around the track faster.
We have a race called the Nations cup, which is all the exotic super cars (Ferrari's, Lambo's, Vipers, Corvettes, Porsches etc). And for the last 3 years its been won by Porsches.
Its facinating to watch. The only car that has given the Porsches a run for the money is on longer tracks, with straights, and its always a Lambo with its massive horse power and torque, and boy does it pull away on those straights. However, the Porsche always caught up on the turns....
This isn't necessarily directed at you, I guess the prevailing idea is that horsepower is needed, and if you want to drag people off at the lights, buy a Honda
Anyway, I'm glad your quite comfortable in handling to Porsche, so by all means! Get more horse power!!!!
<strong>In response . . .
Dana, I hope you did not take my comments as a personal attack, none were intended, I was just trying to reinforce that I am not a yahoo who does not understand the complex dynamics inherent in driving a 911 quickly. I would also have to agree that most 911 drivers are better by necessity because just mashing the go fast pedal and sawing the wheel around will end you in a ditch.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at all! You never really know from what angle a person is coming from till you reply to their thread.
I have seen too many people simply scream more horse power because they feel it would get them around the track faster.
We have a race called the Nations cup, which is all the exotic super cars (Ferrari's, Lambo's, Vipers, Corvettes, Porsches etc). And for the last 3 years its been won by Porsches.
Its facinating to watch. The only car that has given the Porsches a run for the money is on longer tracks, with straights, and its always a Lambo with its massive horse power and torque, and boy does it pull away on those straights. However, the Porsche always caught up on the turns....
This isn't necessarily directed at you, I guess the prevailing idea is that horsepower is needed, and if you want to drag people off at the lights, buy a Honda
Anyway, I'm glad your quite comfortable in handling to Porsche, so by all means! Get more horse power!!!!
07-15-2002, 10:55 AM
#52
Instructor
Thread Starter
Just a follow-up on my last post, it should read late apex and push out. However, I understand that the theory is early apex and steer with the rear end. Is this theory correct? By apexing early you will end up off the track and the end of the turn unless you hold the inside of the track through the natural apex. My butt tells me that the 911 likes to push and the more speed and weight you transfer to the rear the better. By late apexing you give yourself a little room to slide and you could further extend your braking zone by going deeper into the corner without turning in.
Am I on track (no pun) here?
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
Am I on track (no pun) here?
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
11-13-2002, 06:54 AM
#54
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[quote]Originally posted by Dana Drury:
<strong>
Not at all! You never really know from what angle a person is coming from till you reply to their thread.
I have seen too many people simply scream more horse power because they feel it would get them around the track faster.
We have a race called the Nations cup, which is all the exotic super cars (Ferrari's, Lambo's, Vipers, Corvettes, Porsches etc). And for the last 3 years its been won by Porsches.
Its facinating to watch. The only car that has given the Porsches a run for the money is on longer tracks, with straights, and its always a Lambo with its massive horse power and torque, and boy does it pull away on those straights. However, the Porsche always caught up on the turns....
This isn't necessarily directed at you, I guess the prevailing idea is that horsepower is needed, and if you want to drag people off at the lights, buy a Honda
Anyway, I'm glad your quite comfortable in handling to Porsche, so by all means! Get more horse power!!!! </strong><hr></blockquote>
just a few corrections....
john bowes F360, the viper and the lambo all gave richards (911) a run for his money...
it was only richards' skill that kept him in front when he was, and the reason he won the series was due to consistency....
sure, the viper and diablo has it really only in turns (coming out), but the F360 wasnt far off the 911 in braking, but would kill it coming out....
the diablo didnt do better because half the time it didnt race....
the F360 didnt because it was inconsistent and had arguably an inferior driver (richards winning his 3rd nations cup in a row, his 6th targa tasmania, and his 3rd?? Bathurst 1000)
also....hondas are not the best 1/4 mile car....
they arent cheap to get even 11 sec times...
to get them running quick makes them dogs as daily drivers... (500hp from less than 2Ls????)
you'll find no late model japanese car running 11's or quicker is cheap....
if you DO want a cheap 1/4 mile only car, you get a mazda rx3, and build up the 13b enough to get uoy into 9s....
this is done alot in australia, so watch your *** for cheap lookin rotaries....
you'll find that the GT japanese imports that run quick 1/4 mile times are expensive too....
a 10 sec supra/300zx/wrx/gtr/200sx etc aint cheap....
make no mistake these are big $$ builds...
the guys that have these are either cashed up performance enthusiasts, own a tuning shop, or spend all their money on their car....
that said, im very interested in a 300zx that was coming 3rd in targa tasmania (until dq'd)
behind 2 996 turbos....
this car will out handle, accerlerate and brake a stock 996 turbo....
of course it wasnt cheap to build up....
any car can be made to do wateva the owner wants given enough $$$$
<strong>
Not at all! You never really know from what angle a person is coming from till you reply to their thread.
I have seen too many people simply scream more horse power because they feel it would get them around the track faster.
We have a race called the Nations cup, which is all the exotic super cars (Ferrari's, Lambo's, Vipers, Corvettes, Porsches etc). And for the last 3 years its been won by Porsches.
Its facinating to watch. The only car that has given the Porsches a run for the money is on longer tracks, with straights, and its always a Lambo with its massive horse power and torque, and boy does it pull away on those straights. However, the Porsche always caught up on the turns....
This isn't necessarily directed at you, I guess the prevailing idea is that horsepower is needed, and if you want to drag people off at the lights, buy a Honda
Anyway, I'm glad your quite comfortable in handling to Porsche, so by all means! Get more horse power!!!!
</strong><hr></blockquote>just a few corrections....
john bowes F360, the viper and the lambo all gave richards (911) a run for his money...
it was only richards' skill that kept him in front when he was, and the reason he won the series was due to consistency....
sure, the viper and diablo has it really only in turns (coming out), but the F360 wasnt far off the 911 in braking, but would kill it coming out....
the diablo didnt do better because half the time it didnt race....
the F360 didnt because it was inconsistent and had arguably an inferior driver (richards winning his 3rd nations cup in a row, his 6th targa tasmania, and his 3rd?? Bathurst 1000)
also....hondas are not the best 1/4 mile car....
they arent cheap to get even 11 sec times...
to get them running quick makes them dogs as daily drivers... (500hp from less than 2Ls????)
you'll find no late model japanese car running 11's or quicker is cheap....
if you DO want a cheap 1/4 mile only car, you get a mazda rx3, and build up the 13b enough to get uoy into 9s....
this is done alot in australia, so watch your *** for cheap lookin rotaries....
you'll find that the GT japanese imports that run quick 1/4 mile times are expensive too....
a 10 sec supra/300zx/wrx/gtr/200sx etc aint cheap....
make no mistake these are big $$ builds...
the guys that have these are either cashed up performance enthusiasts, own a tuning shop, or spend all their money on their car....
that said, im very interested in a 300zx that was coming 3rd in targa tasmania (until dq'd)
behind 2 996 turbos....
this car will out handle, accerlerate and brake a stock 996 turbo....
of course it wasnt cheap to build up....
any car can be made to do wateva the owner wants given enough $$$$
07-08-2009, 07:55 PM
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i'm a drag racer at heart, been down the track in many cars ranging from 17 seconds to my current low 10 second mustang. I understand the OP's statement about wanting "mid 13 second" performance as it's just about necessary today since every granny in her AMG MB has 350hp. My '79 930 ran high 13's bone stock (back in 1991) and with a gutted muffler and a couple more #'s of boost went low 13's at 110mph with a VERY soft launch. All this talk about driver skill over power is great for "track only" outings but for daily driving it helps to have a few extra ponies. I would put my vote in for buying a 930 and go racing. You get 13 second power/performance right out of the gate and no need for mods. And as some have said in this thread the P-car have a way of getting the most from their hp. I showed many a mustang my DP wing 
07-08-2009, 07:57 PM
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oh on the other hand, the Porsche race shop next door just dropped a '95 993 motor in a 80sc. The car is 2300# and has 270hp....... if you can't figure out how to go 13's in that you might as well get the new Prius
07-12-2009, 12:51 PM
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A 915 911 is not a drag car.
My motor is mostly stock. Going fast on the track seems to be mostly about tires, suspention, brakes, and the driver.
Next, light weight and gears can transform a 911.
We have one guy that runs our track with a 72 911 with a 2.8 (light motor and trans) and not that impressive of a set up except big tires and there are few big motor cars between him and top time of the day.
Build a chipped and race exhaust mostly stock 3.2 to 2100 lbs w gears and few will keep up.
I am not a great driver but it seems if I get a good exit onto the straight in my near stock 3.2, the big motor cars do not put that much distance on me.
Still, a well tuned 3.6 conversion would be cool. However, might be cheaper to just sell the 3.2 car and buy a 964 and put the savings in to making it fast. Then you will hve a transmission that can handle some drag racing.
My motor is mostly stock. Going fast on the track seems to be mostly about tires, suspention, brakes, and the driver.
Next, light weight and gears can transform a 911.
We have one guy that runs our track with a 72 911 with a 2.8 (light motor and trans) and not that impressive of a set up except big tires and there are few big motor cars between him and top time of the day.
Build a chipped and race exhaust mostly stock 3.2 to 2100 lbs w gears and few will keep up.
I am not a great driver but it seems if I get a good exit onto the straight in my near stock 3.2, the big motor cars do not put that much distance on me.
Still, a well tuned 3.6 conversion would be cool. However, might be cheaper to just sell the 3.2 car and buy a 964 and put the savings in to making it fast. Then you will hve a transmission that can handle some drag racing.
07-12-2009, 10:54 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
i'm a drag racer at heart, been down the track in many cars ranging from 17 seconds to my current low 10 second mustang. I understand the OP's statement about wanting "mid 13 second" performance as it's just about necessary today since every granny in her AMG MB has 350hp. My '79 930 ran high 13's bone stock (back in 1991) and with a gutted muffler and a couple more #'s of boost went low 13's at 110mph with a VERY soft launch. All this talk about driver skill over power is great for "track only" outings but for daily driving it helps to have a few extra ponies. I would put my vote in for buying a 930 and go racing. You get 13 second power/performance right out of the gate and no need for mods. And as some have said in this thread the P-car have a way of getting the most from their hp. I showed many a mustang my DP wing
What's really fun is sticking like glue to the back of a new M5 on the backroads with no ABS or traction control and a lot less HP.
,
07-13-2009, 01:44 AM
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not sure what you mean Ed? the OP wants more power and is asking how to get it. I gave him my point of view to help him find the best route to what he wants. Besides if I drag race my 930 and it makes me happy, how is it any different than what anyone else does with theirs? The only waste of a perfectly good car are the low mileage garage queens.
and why do you guys reference Hondas when it comes to drag racing? thats like relating school buses to power boat racing.
and why do you guys reference Hondas when it comes to drag racing? thats like relating school buses to power boat racing.
