John..

I would look into the supercharging option, with about 5 psig. of boost. It has been done successfully on 911s and 993s. I have not had any inner engine problems with my 928 running 8.5 psig of boost with bone stock guts.

NP993

This is a great thread. The only thing I have to add is that anyone who wants a faster, better handling, better braking car should first consider lightening their car. A lot of cars are larded up with lots of luxury amenities that can be removed. Then there are fiberglass body panels, such as hoods, doors, bumpers, and fenders, that save a lot of weight (and also cost a lot of money). I've kind of turned into a fanatic when it comes to weight, and when the occasion presented itself bought a euro '78 SC chassis that has no options whatsoever (manual windows, etc.) It's very light, and lessens the horsepower and suspension requirements to achieve a super-fun car.

Roamer

John, where did you get your supercharger and, if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost?

Noah, I intend to lighten the car as much as possible keeping in mind that the bulk of this cars use will be for backroad runs and trips with the wife. Given this I do have to keep livability issues in mind. Therefore heavy things like the A/C and power windows will probably be left in, I also can't see myself spending big money on fiberglass. Are there any areas left for lightening, and which are most effective?

Thanks again to all!

Dana Drury

The question I always ask myself is it the tools or the tradesman? You know the old saying - "A bad tradesman blames his tools".

I don't know if I reiterate some other replies as I have read through a few, but they seem to all point to the madness of doing X to the engine.

Porsches have never been designed as 1/4 mile monsters, they have been designed as overall packages.

Maybe learning to push your edge would give you what you need?

I had a nice street race in my Integra against an Integra that was 3 years newer than mine. The guy only got away from me because I was sitting at a red light, he had been behind me and got a rolling start. However we approached an almost 90 degree turn, with a barrier seperating each lane (this was late at night on some very quiet back streets), I was able to sit right on his backside as he went into the corner, and he had to slow up because he obviously was not a capable driver, I kept right there, and if I had wanted to, I was right in the rev range and could have swung out of his slip stream onto the wrong side and over took him without an issue. (but I wouldn't risk it, I don't have anything to prove).

I don't make any assumptions on your driving ability, but I find my Porsche amazing fun, and certainly adequete for street use. I don't drag race people because most Rice-mobiles can win, but as soon as you hit a corner, they are dead, especially if you know what your doing.

Now, the track is a different story, but, if you are racing similarly capable cars, are you winning? If not, can you push your car further to the edge?

JBrown

i will not 1/4 mile run my car because of the 915 tranny. but i have freinds who have a 2002 mustang 5.0 and a turboed integra with about 6lb boost. my car is a 3.0 sc. when i raced them from 40mph on they pulled me by about 3-4 cars by the time we were doing 125mph. I had a 3.2 shortstroke turbo motor built for the car. total investment about 15,000 with install not including all the other upgrades like suspention and brakes etc. i raced them again. all i can say is see ya!!!! i left them for dead. i know we are talking about quarter mile but on the highway porsche turbos are a hard car to beat by anything includeing my freinds supercharged 350 rwhp mustang. and i have some nice low end out of this motor. I find it funny on how many peaple talk like this cars are slow. the 911 is the utimate sports car period!!! and the turbo are one of a handfull of sports cars on the highway to mess with. i am talking about 20 yr old turbos to. I know there are other turbo owners out there who know what i am saying. i love the rice rockets on the highway. specially when they think they are going up agains a 3.0sc motor, which still got out of its own way.

Roamer

Dana, having a SCCA competition license and 8 years of racing experience, I think I am a fair tradesman. However, being a fair tradesman I am aware of my car's limitations. If you look further up this thread you will see my discussion over the race with the Z06. I was frustrated because the 911's braking and handling advantage was lost because of the huge hp difference between his 405 and my ~220. My goal is to narrow that gap and let the natural advantages of the 911 shine through.

Prior to purchasing my 911 I drove many cars and had a dislke for most turbocharged cars, including the 951 because of their inherent imbalance. The two cars that were close competitors were the RX-7 Twin Turbo and the M-Roadster/coupe. Both were very fast and light with great balance and responsiveness. However I bailed on the bimmer because of price and the Mazda because of its fragile feel and questionable durability. What I did like was the instant throttle response and ability to rotate the car predictably with the throttle.

My 911, while having some jump at upper rpms lacks low end pull and with the factory locking diff has a tought time adjusting the rear end with the throttle (too much grip for the hp).

This discussion has lead me away from turbo swaps and toward nice smooth hp avaiable from a 3.6-3.8 swap or potentially a supercharger (which I am leaning away from right now). I also have some work to do before the motor goes in (brakes & suspension) that way the car is ready for the motor rather than the other way around.

Thanks for the input!
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ZCAT3

This is a little OT, but I constantly see people getting a hard time for wanting more power and/or quicker acceleration out of their 911s. The answer always seems to be "Make yourself a better driver, don't worry about the car as you will never match the car's abilities." What about the person who does not have the desire or time to spend hours at the track doing DEs and merely loves the 911 package but wants it faster for ocassional fun on the street? Not everyone is a road course racer and some people just want to be able to hit the accelerator on ocassion and get a taste of speed.

Anyway - sorry for the digression, I just get tired on people being told to go to the track to learn to drive when they are merely asking about how to get more power (for whatever reason).

Dean

I agree with Bill.
Dean

Howard

Marc, (Roamer)

I started with a stock 3.0 two years ago and spent lots of $$ trying to get acceptable power (to me, anyway) from that configuration, then I opted for a 3.2 and built it up to a 3.4 with carbs, cams, 10.3:1 CR, ported, polished, crankfire ignition, etc., giving me approximately 300 flywheel HP. But, I still needed to feel the power in the seat of the pants so I decided to re-gear the gear box. This was the best move I could make, although it was costly. I retained the 8.31 R and P went with a taller 1st, 2nd, stock 3rd, and shorter 4th and 5th, of course the ratios were based on tire size,hp,and intended use, for me strictly track. First gear is most expensive since the input shaft has one gear of the set welded in place, the other gears are straight forward swaps.If you have any transmission experience you can do the gear swap yourself, I did, it's not that complicated. There is a handy ratio calculator at <a href="http://www.instant-g.com" target="_blank">www.instant-g.com</a> good luck !

Ed Bighi

Bill, we forget that sometimes. It's just that when people mention racing a Z06, we automatically think the track. Not the street. Heck, I screw around every time I go to the track with Z06's and come out on top. Except for one time when the guy had slicks that stuck 3 inches out of the body. Never tried on the street and never will. And if I did, I know I would get taken because my car isn't made for racing on the street. Not that I don't drive fast on the highway. I do and have 12 points in Florida and another 8 in Arizona to show for it. I just don't do it when there is anyone around. But if I were to go by your approach of just good power for having fun on a day to day basis, for me there is only one choice. Turbo. A 930 turbo engine fits in easier than a 3.6 and starts at the kind of power you would elevate a 3.6 to. I have driven plenty of modified 930 turbos. From stock all the way to over 500. Some had a lot of lag, others barely any. You can get rid of just about all the lag if you want to. I don't because I like a little lag for that heightened feeling of boost. The most fun I have ever had on the street is with modified 930's. Much more than with the 3.6 conversions, 964's, 993's that I have driven. I really love them because they are easier and cheaper than anything to modify and pass emissions with.

ZCAT3

Hi Ed - I appreciate your reply. There does seem to me to be almost a snobbish attitude on this board toward people who want more HP. I have a modified 930, that is getting more modified as we speak. It has very little lag and about 450 HP. It is so much fun to drive on the street. I never have raced anyone or done a 1/4 mile, but have done several DEs (only 1 in the 930, however, as that car scared the hell out of me at the track). I really enjoy tweaking the 930 to get more power. Every time I drive it I can hit the gas and feel like a kid on a roller coaster. I think a lot of P-Car owners love the 911 line for its looks, feel, and heritage, but would never become hard core DE participants. For these people to want their cars to be able to keep up on the street with the newer performance cars of the day is not unreasonable (of course a stock 930 can get taken by a decently powered mini-van from a standstill).

Ed Bighi

Turbo! That magic word.

Roamer

Just a follow-up to this line of discussion, I find it naive and somewhat shortsighted to bestow this mythic lack of limitation on the 911. There have been comments on this board that 'you will never be able to drive to this car's limitations' which is rediculous. The limitations of a stock 911 n.a. are not THAT high.

If you were to take an expert 911 driver and pin him against an expert in say a Z06, RX-7 twin, Lotus Esprit, Ferrari 355, 993 RS America, and cars of that caliber (for road racing) YOU WILL LOSE! Why, power to weight baby. For gods sake even the daily "grocery getters" have 40+ more hp than stock 84-89 911s, those sports cars listed above have anywhere from 80-180 more! Because I could not afford the exotics or newer cars listed above (and did not care for or could fit in the RX-7) I would like to modify my car to be able to generate the same performance as those listed above. I am not a 1/4 mile junky, I just like the feel and performance that cars having 9-10:1 power to weight ratios have and how they perform on the track when combined with a competent suspension. If I wanted to drag I would just by a turbo motor and run the boost to 20 psi.

The steps are easy, a little more brakes, a little stiffer and lower suspension and a nice dose of hp. By just moving up to 280-300 hp you can compete with (and probably best) cars that have 80-100 more hp. THAT my friends is the magic of the 911. Just because it takes more hp to exploit it does not in any way diminish the product or 'tarnish' the blood lines.

The argument that a 13+ year old car (having a 30+ year old chassis set up) should be good enough to compete with a much newer breed is rediculous, why else would Porsche have improved the 911 when it could have just kept making the old ones?

The fun that I am looking to have is to involve myself in the ENHANCEMENT of my 911 so that guys in the newer cars will scratch their heads as I drive by.

I apologize for the rant.
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Tim

A few weeks ago I spent a day with a friend of mine at a dyno. Our mission was to fine tune a 3.4L engine we built.

After a few hours of dyno pulls and tweeking the tec2. we achieved 311 RWHP which translates to about ~370 flywheel hp!!

the engine we built give a tad more than 100 hp/ltr, which is pretty damn good for a normaly aspirated engine.

You can get over 300 hp with a 3.2

Ed Bighi

I do understand your feelings, but my 911 friends and I do feel we have a definite advantage when it comes to handling due to what we have been able to do against all the heavier front engined cars we encounter. I read an article a few months back by Paul Gentilozzi, who mentioned that after driving a Supercup 911 for the first time, he got killed by the other drivers who were taking a somewhat early apex lines that suited the 911 very well. He was taking the classic late apex. He mentioned that once he started doing what the other drivers were, he went much faster and felt he could never get away with that in any front engine car he has driven. Vic Elford also mentions in his book that by virtue of the 911's inherent instability which creates a car that is much more willing to rotate and change direction, a 911 can be used to your advantage if you have the car control capabilities. Now keep in mind I am mentioning Vettes. Not Lotus, nor Ferrari. Both with mid engines. The mid has that willingness to change direction also, and in ways is superior to the rear engine placement of the 911 due to it's neutral nature. But with an engine in the extreme rear, you can get away with much more of a slip angle than a mid engine will accept. Of course, no average driver can pull that off. You have to have some time with the car. I've spent plenty of time driving my 911 on smooth dirt roads at 10/10ths to realize that. By doing that I noticed why the 911 had such a dominance in rallying until awd came into play.

While I agree that power to weight ration is everything, there is a little more to it. While a car with a better power to weight ratio will be faster than a car with a worse power to weight ratio, if both cars have the same power to weight ratio, the lighter car at that same ratio will win. I've seen it again and again. Not only that, I truly feel that a car that has a tad worse power to weight ratio than another car, but having substantially less weight than the other cars will be faster if the driver knows when to capitalize on that weight advantage. That was proven by the Porsche 550 rs, rsk and the rs 60 against the big Ferraris of the day. Or the mini coopers which consistently beat heavier cars with better power to weight ratios. Of course, at very high speed tracks, which are almost extinct today, the higher hp starts to become a factor and gives the heavier car an advantage.

But there is something else that my 911 friends and I have noticed. We have found that due to the unforgiving handling tendencies of the 911, the 911 drivers we know have progressed to a higher level of proficiency than our friends in front engine cars. Much more so in comparison to guys who pack a lot of horspower and have less of need to push their cars in the turns. In a 911, one is in a sink-or-swim situation. We have noticed that when we drive their front engined cars, while somewhat frustrated at the non-willingness of the car to rotate, we can easily push it to it's limits. But those front engine drivers are never as successful controling our cars as we are in theirs.

I also used to think that the 911's limits were not that high a few years back. I have been driving the same 911 on the track since 1992 and in 1998, I thought I pretty much knew its limits. But today I am amazed I that there is a lot more to it. I have also found that while most cars lose a lot of speed when going sideways, it isn't as detrimental in a 911. These cars need to be driven like a broom being balanced upside down by the tip. If one is trying to avoid oversteer instead of using it to his or her advantage, he or she is not maximizing it. I also find the key to going quickly in a certain car stick to it like glue without altering it constantly and have to relearn it. The way I look at it, if someone in front of me at the track is driving a 4 year old car, there is no way in hell he is going to know that car as well as I know my old friend. For a good example of that, read an article called "Then and Now" in the August 2000 issue of Excellence magazine. If anyone wants to do anything on the track with their 911, or just modify their car, that article should be classified as required reading and should be in any FAQ regarding 911's.

I don't want to start an argument, as these are just my findings and opinions. I also feel that the single biggest limiting factor in an sc, carrera or 930 is the overly soft torsion bars that inhibit the true nature of these cars. They rotate much better on bigger torsion bars. I believe in these cars and live for them. I simply cannot drive anything less challenging than what these cars present me with. Regardless of how much or little power they have. Every time I sit in a 911, I feel like a little kid sitting in the same car that immortalized people like Peter Gregg, Rolf Stommelen, Bob Wollek and Bob Akin.
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