Hugh

My heart is in my throat today. I bought an '84 Carrera with 92K miles two weeks ago which was described to me by the dealer as original, w/ no accidents. Yesterday I had it serviced to discover: 1) the valve guides are completely gone (approx $3000) and 2) it had been wrecked.. badly. I first noticed a gas smell, then the rotors felt out of round on braking, even though the dealer claimed they were brand new. Turns out it was hit so hard the tank was cracked and the left front suspension is unable to be adjusted straight. The left front tire is scalloping badly and is being cut by the fender lip because it's too far forward in the wheel well. !!!! I have no idea how much this would cost to "fix" or if it's even fixable. Sounds like at least another $3K to me. I paid $20K for this car and I'm just sick because it seems it's worth at least $5K less than that. I have yet to speak with the dealer, but I will today soon. I'd like to know if anyone has any advice, legal or tactical, besides making sure I get my next car checked out before buying it. ugh.

Mrdi

Hope you've owned it less than 3 days. Take it back. In CA you have 3 days. Don't know about PA.

John Brandt

I know some guys who'd be happy to borrow your car and...

addictionms

I don't know about recourse, but be sure your car is worth more than $5K. Check out www.laporsche.com, parts cars are not $20K, but also not $5K. I would be surprised if there are not a few smaller things you can do to correct your problems. Quotes from a good bodyshop will give you a good idea of what you really need done.

Rotors and the gas tank are really easy to fix, front rotors take about two hours to replace and cost in the range of $75 each, and a gas tank once empty should be about the same amount of time and should be available from a local version of laporsche or Partsheaven (both here in CA).

The bent front end, could be as simple as an A-arm, about $200 and three hours work, plus you can convert to nylon bushings, if the impact has gone into the cars structure, now is a great time to consider getting it fixed and adding camber boxes and camber plates.

So you see...I see this as an opportunity to upgrade the things you will wnat to do in the future anyways...

hope it all works out for you...one final suggestion get the Carrera Service manual for Porsche by Robert Bentley at http://www.books4cars.com/ for $100, the best $100 you'll ever spend.

Jim

JonSeigel

Call (415) 861-2265. They are a law firm in San Francisco that specializes in this type of stuff. I am not affiliated with them.

Good luck,

Jon

P.S. As the expression goes: "everyone hates lawsuits except for the one they file."

JBH

Unfortunately, sometimes we learn the hard way...my first Porsche was a 1978 911SC Targa. Like you I asked the dealer about repaint, accidents, and overall condition of mechanicals. Having made payment and signed all the papers the used car dealer put one more in front of me claiming he forgot about it...just sign at the bottom. It was an As-Is form that stated I accepted the car as it was represented and I wouldn't hold him liable for all the things that might go wrong.

Like you, I took it to have new tires mounted and the car aligned. That's when I discovered the car had been hit badly. Later on I discovered it was rolled. I was pissed! I went back to the dealer to ask for my money back (5 days elapsed). Of course he said no and showed me that last minute form I signed.

I had the vehicle repaired and sued him for the total amount. Signing an AS-IS form or any other type of Release Form does not relieve the dealer of misrepresentation. You clearly have a case where the actual condition of the car is quite different from what was represented. I won the case, but unfortunately, my legal fees were not recoverable. In retrospect I was lucky - I fixed the car at considerable expense and I won my case. I really was in danger of losing a lot of money on that car.

I suggest you go visit the dealer to see if you can return the car. If he will not refund, he may be willing to pay for all or part of the repairs - just don't let the dealer do the work.

If all that fails seek legal opinion (not just one). Most courts do not like used car dealers, but the process of discovery and trial is long and costly.

I really feel for you because I know how difficult it is to discover your trust in another individual was violated.

BTW: I did get great pleasure out of seeing the dealer's face when the judge announced his verdict (non-jury trial). I saw him experience the same pain and anger I felt when I found out I was cheated

Good Luck!.

davis911s

All I want to add is hope for the best, don't get ignorant with the dealer it won't help. If he is unwilling to help, then use the court system.

Small claims has no lawyer fees here in Canada, I'm not sure about the US?

Good Luck that is WRONG!

Shawn

83cab

Unless things in CA have changed, you don't have 3 days on a car purchase. Once you the wheels touch the street it's yours. I found out the hard way with my first Porsche that I bought at McKennas.

Thom Fitzpatrick

Of course a pre-purchase inspection would have revealed all of this...

Randall G.

I think California has revoked its "cooling-off" period law. I have bought three cars from different dealers in the last three years, and each time I've been asked to sign a "California does not have a cooling-off period law" form.

Paul H

Why haven't you posted the dealers name?

Ian Evans

Randall is correct, there is NO "cooling off" period in California. Hasn't been for many, many years.

Used cars are generally sold "as is, where is" with no express or implied warranties. Take a look at your contract. It will likely say that you bought the car "as is," and that the contract represents the entire deal between the parties, and that you did not rely on any oral representations. In other words, if it isn't in the contract, it didn't happen.

That being said, it is still illegal to defraud someone. If the dealer knew about the condition, or reasonbly should have known, or had no basis for telling you it was a non-wrecked car, you can likely make a decent claim. Esp. if the damage is really obvious to a mechanic.

The problem is the cost that you will have to incur if you hire a lawyer.

You might want to give it a shot on your own to see if they will take the car back. If they think you are serious about pursuing them, they just *might* do it to get rid of you. I would carefully document everything in writing, and make careful notes of any conversations you have with them. The best approach is to try to stay calm and reasonable, give them the specifics about what was said to you about the car (by whom, what exactly was said, when it was said), and the specifics about the problems you have discovered (who discovered them, how, exactly how they can tell, how much it will cost). If you put them in a defensive posture right away, they will go into a shell and not cooperate.

If, after that, they don't cooperate, you can escalate it. But, give them a chance.

Good luck.

TSN

One of the prior posts correctly stated the law in California -- an "as-is" clause is no defense to a claim of fraud (typically defined as a misrepresentation made by the defrauding party with knowledge by the defrauding party that the statement is false -- some grey area exists as to whether an omission as opposed to an affirmative statement, or reckless disregard of the truth, are sufficient by themselves.

The difficulty for a layperson may be establishing the seller's knowledge (or potentially reckless disregard of the truth). An attorney would probably conduct some discovery, including a deposition, to generate a record of knowledge by the seller --i.e., the seller's own investigation into the car when they acquired it, any work they did, their typical inspection of the car, the fact that they are car dealers who are better positioned to find these problems than you, the lay consumer, etc. etc.

Small claims might work. In California, at the initial trial neither you nor the dealer can be represented by an attorney, and both of you can conduct some limited pre-trial discovery. However, the small claims decision is readily appealable in the form of a new trial, and at that stage, attorney representation is permitted.

What usually works is a demonstration on your part that you mean business. A diplomatic but pointed letter to the dealer that you were misled about the history and condition of the vehicle, followed by a request that the dealer take the car back should be the beginning. Any phone calls should be documented in this and other correspondence.

Basically, you want a written record so that, if you do go to court, you have better evidence than the proverbial spitting match -- i.e., conflicting oral testimony he said that, she said that, etc. etc. Remember that these documents should be drafted as though a judge were reviewing them (which may very well be the case).

If that initial response fails or an inadequate response is provided to you, the next step might be to obtain the form of complaint from the Small Claims court and, after filling in the banks, send a copy to the offending seller and advise him that you will be required to seek the intervention of the judicial system by filing the complaint should he not take action within a stated deadline.

Of course, you could also retain an attorney, but your case should be serious enough to warrant the expense of a decent practioner.

Not even attempting to practice law, but merely sharing my experience with similar problems in the past.

Depending on the dealer, they may already have a "go-to" lawyer for these problems, so don't be intimidated if such a person suddenly appears on behalf of the seller. You will simply need to go further in the process -- your case sounds relatively straightforward from your explanation.

Good luck. Tom

pH

Excellent reply from Tom.

Planter91C2

way to throw salt in the wound, i'm sure that is what the poster wanted to hear